Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

[AnnaRosa]

I didn't expect anything from you. If you experienced that then its nice for you but you call others, that haven't been as lucky as you, more or less liars. So cut the b.s. and enjoy your luck.

Am missing something here how is it possible we have two completely different experiences in their majority if we play both in EU servers the community shouldn't be that different as for what you describe it seems we playing different games.

[DPZ2]

Actually, in Mists of Pandaria, WoW actually did lock the LFG tool behind completing Silver difficulty in a set of solo trials for each role you wished to use.

...

Though, this ended up being scrapped because it turned out that the majority of the playerbase was complete trash and found it too hard to beat Silver trials, because concepts like "Hit the bad guy" and "Don't stand in the fire" are too complex...

Blade and Soul also had its own version of player tutoring, with a training room that would get you to use your abilities either in a rotation of sorts, or stuff like reacting to certain enemy skills (Such as interrupting an AoE cast or defending against a high damage skill etc) though while these were optional, they gave some nice gear for completing them whilst teaching you quite a lot about how to actually play your class in different situations..

The problem with your anecdote is that the Proving Grounds in Mists of Panderia were optional and did not keep you from running dungeon instances. They weren't related to dungeon instances or raids at all. So no, they didn't lock LFG behind trials.

Challenge Modes were timed heroic instances in scaled down gear, with rewards such as titles and armor. They also had bronze, silver and gold levels, were entirely optional and came before the Proving Grounds.

Challenge Modes would be a fine addition to this game, as long as SE didn't give out more than titles and glamours. Bragging rights, "I got Challenger Gold in X" would be fine.

The Novice Hall in FFXIV is as useful as the training room in Blade & Soul. You get role/level-appropriate gear and 'get out of the fire' tactics. You get current combo training when you do your class/job quests, and it varies so much that it can't be included in Novice Hall. (Also, who really is going to stick to the basic level 15 rotation for the rest of the game?)

I wasn't particularly pleased with the B&S training room, since it came too early in the game to be useful. The combos in that game aren't as intuitive, either.

I understand why Novice Hall is optional -- I have alts on other worlds, and don't really want to spend the time and effort to go through the sessions more than once for each role.

[Kalise]

The problem with your anecdote is that the Proving Grounds in Mists of Panderia were optional and did not keep you from running dungeon instances. They weren't related to dungeon instances or raids at all. So no, they didn't lock LFG behind trials.

They did eventually in WoD, with the system they added in during MoP.

Challenge Modes were timed heroic instances in scaled down gear, with rewards such as titles and armor. They also had bronze, silver and gold levels, were entirely optional and came before the Proving Grounds.

Challenge Modes would be a fine addition to this game, as long as SE didn't give out more than titles and glamours. Bragging rights, "I got Challenger Gold in X" would be fine.

The issue with Challenge Modes both in WoW and this iteration for XIV, is it still doesn't actually incentivise anyone to actually know how to play the game at all in any way.

It's still relegated to optional side content, that no-one will care about doing outside the people whom already are pushing themselves to improve already despite the game doing literally nothing to promote that.

Challenge Modes would be as relevant as the PotD/HoH leaderboards.

The Novice Hall in FFXIV is as useful as the training room in Blade & Soul. You get role/level-appropriate gear and 'get out of the fire' tactics. You get current combo training when you do your class/job quests, and it varies so much that it can't be included in Novice Hall. (Also, who really is going to stick to the basic level 15 rotation for the rest of the game?)

This is where the difference is.

Novice Hall in XIV is only up to level 15.

Blade & Soul it went throughout your character progression up to and including max level. With it altering the rotation it gets you to practice as you unlocked new skills, sometimes expanding on previous iterations, sometimes creating completely new ones.

With each level of the Training Room providing some nice, level appropriate gear along the way.

Really, the only downside to B&S's training room, was some of the rotations it had you perform ended up wanting a specific timing between attacks, anything faster or slower was a fail.

I understand why Novice Hall is optional -- I have alts on other worlds, and don't really want to spend the time and effort to go through the sessions more than once for each role.

They could make the thing an account-wide unlock. Meaning you'd only have to repeat it if you made new SE accounts and repurchased the game each time.

[DPZ2]

Subpar players: Players that are not new anymore and don't know the basics of their job or can't do the easiest mechanics. You don't need to parse to see if someone has no clue what he/she is doing. Want an example? There you go: Two RDM in a dungeon, tank pulls normal and only one of them uses scatter. The one that doesn't use scatter is a subpar player because he/she doesn't know the basics of his/her class.

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

[cicatriz313]

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

I enjoy how you specifically chose a "normal pull" to be single pulling vs the actual normal pull which would be pulling to the wall 2-3 groups. It's suboptimal play at that point hands down.

[Kalise]

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

Jolt > Veraero still consumes 2 GCD's and thus is still 2 spells worth of actions.

Time spent actually hard-casting is only relevant if the cast time exceeds that of your GCD, which in most cases is never relevant because few jobs have anything with longer than a 2.5s base cast time (Really, it's only BLM that does)

Thus in 10 seconds, you can cast 4 spells (Assuming no SpS so 2.5s GCD)

Those 4 spells can be Scatter x4 for 300 potency each (If we assume 3x mobs) for a total of 1200 potency.

Or they can be Jolt > Veraero > Impact > Veraero which is 180 + 300 + 240 + 300 = 1020 potency.

Thus, overall, using AoE against 3 targets is beneficial here.

Though, I won't go into the more in depth analysis which would then factor in Mana generation which then contributes to Moulinet/Riposte usage and with Riposte Combo also leading into a Verflare/Verholy which complicates things somewhat (Just like the Upheaval vs Fell Cleave argument technically should also factor in FC's reduction in CD on Infuriate which increases overall BG generation)

[DPZ2]

They did eventually in WoD, with the system they added in during MoP.

This is not what you claimed initially, and you forgot that little part where players in WoD could still queue up for dungeons and LFR without having to ever visit the proving grounds. It was a gate for Heroic dungeons only.

[Ilan]

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

Thanks for trying to educate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

[AnnaRosa]

I do not expect you to be a god.
I do not expect you to read guides.
I do not expect you to never get any damage
I do not expect you to never mess up anything.

But i do wonder why you do not Aoe on large pulls? Especially as a Bard? Why don't bards aoe?
I do expect you to learn by doing? Like, yo're new? Fine, i(or others) can tell you basic mechanics if they're important enough. Like, you don't have the fight fully down even if not first time? Fine???
BUT you keep dying to the same thing over and over and over and over?

I know you may be playing the game after a workday and are a little tired maybe. But are you sure playing in this state is enjoyable for you?

Games are there to be PLAYED. Not to do while paying more attention to something else in the meantime?
It's not that hard to pay a little attention... just... a TINY LITTLE BIT ATTENTION.


But what do i know, i and other people got called toxic raiders because we weren't responsible for wiping thundergod cid over 4 times and wondered what's going on and who needs help. Even though we just asked for people to pay a little attention.

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

I've seen a non-zero number of bards not use AoEs at all so that's likely where it's coming from. It's not a large number - maybe 5%, but it's enough to stick in people's minds. Granted, I don't think complaining about these people will accomplish much other than venting some frustration because they likely don't care.

And as an aside I'm sure they, like many others, don't really think about it until the conversation is brought up. We don't wake up and log in and think, "Damn those bards who don't use AoEs, I hate them."

That is the point can not tell you that will understand because it is beyond me that kind of concern on how other players play their character roles, for me doesn't make any sense.

However agree with you that is important to talk about it at a level it does not upset players or cause them fear mongering to try and continue to enjoy the game, not knowing their irl difficulties for not playing their character roles according your ideal procedures, or someone else ideal aka perfect procedures.

Important is not to discourage recently joined players or casual players to keep enjoying the game just cause a butt-hurt doesn't like the way they play it or lives obsessed with their playing.

Because standards everyone is self-entitled to have them and the same ideal aka perfect standards you have on how bard should be plaid others will state that aren't their ideal dps/tank/heal rotation and that will only cause confusion on the player.

The issue is a bard that doesn't use aoe in a group pull isn't playing their role. They aren't playing any role. A chocobo companion could fill their slot and it wouldn't make much difference.

When you can be replaced by a companion, you're not worth your place in the party and the only thing you should earn is a kick.

Well you can always address the player in a constructive way if you can't address in a constructive way you can always take some communication classes and improve your communication skills in game and out of game.

Instead of telling the player he or she is unwelcome or useless for example refer the aoe skill and how to use it but always keep in mind maybe the player had in the previous team other self-entitled and had to adjust his/her way of playing that role to match the perfect someone else self-entitled standard before.

To be completely honest with you during this four years there were two situations while playing in two different dungeons with the similar layout and number of mobs where other two players offered me advise on how to play one role ninja and even at that received two contradictory directions.

[DPZ2]

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

Which I forget when doing math and not actually playing through the skills.

Over 10 seconds, there will be a drop of 180 potency if you don't use the AoE. That may result in a drop in damage, or it may not, depending on gear level and weapon damage.

The term you are looking for in this case would be 'suboptimal', not 'subpar'. They don't mean the same thing. And it applies to the rotation, not the player.