Warrior Rework Idea

[Cabalabob]

Why do all these job rework threads start with “remove all the role actions and give each job their own version!”. That’s kinda the point of the role actions, so they don’t have to keep making new animations for the same basic tools for every job...

[Kalise]

Why do all these job rework threads start with “remove all the role actions and give each job their own version!”. That’s kinda the point of the role actions, so they don’t have to keep making new animations for the same basic tools for every job...

Probably because role actions are boring at best and superfluous at worst.

Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).

With some actions seemingly only existing to create ability bloat (Protect, Peloton, Cleric Stance - Literally all 3 could just be passive effects)

There are very few Role Actions that are actually meaningful. Thus, with such few meaningful Role Actions, why not make new animations for the same basic tools? Or fit them in with the already existing Job actions that are completely useless anyway?

[Kurando]

Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

[Izsha]

You're welcome to suggest something for a unique WAR related mitigation that can then be used to turn into DPS.

Since, I personally struggle to think of a good example. Like covering the options I've thought about:

1) I thought about having the passive Defiance generation tied to Parried attacks (Similar to Shield Oath granting gauge on Block). But outside Raw Intuition there isn't any forced Parry chances (Also, including a "Sheltron" for Parry would feel too much like copying Paladin). As well as the fact that Parry reliance makes you gimped against casters because you can't parry spells.

2) WAR is thematically about having fat stacks of HP. So something like a HP variant of TBN wouldn't work very well (Since how would you tie the "Mitigation" bonus to such a skill? Especially if your health keeps getting topped off by healers?) - To say nothing about how the gameplay wouldn't be very unique (That, and it would literally just be saved to combo into Upheaval for bonus damage irregardless of incoming damage)

3) Using Inner Beast's current 20% damage reduction. Would again present problems. How would you tie something to this damage reduction? How would it interact with other CD's being used that provide damage reduction?

4) Should WAR randomly become a "Dodge" based tank? With the massive balance issues being apparent from the fact that dodge is 100% mitigation compared to Blocking (Which is ~20% damage reduction) and TBN (Which is 20% EHP) - Which would literally secure WAR as being the ultimate Tank and push out any ideas of a 2 tank composition because they'd just dodge every Tankbuster with their active mitigation.



An interesting idea. One of the reasons I posted mine on the forums was to get feedback and ideas for improvement such as this.

Though, I'm curious as to how you'd see this "Mega awesome IR" working.

Since, personally, I hope for it to not be like current IR, where it throws resource management out the window and devolves into 5x FC all the time (As well as then making up ~40% of our overall damage output so as to make the time between IR's feel like crap)

Also, I wonder in what scenario you'd ever spend MP on IB in this case. When you can gain Defiance from using BB combos (Which, if current potencies aren't changed, would deal more damage than Storm's Path combo as is the case currently. SP is only preferred right now because SP gives 20 Gauge vs BB's 10 Gauge). Wouldn't people only use MP on Fell Cleave and basically never use Deliverance combo's outside of buff maintenance?

Again, I'm open to suggestions.

It's just that WAR currently doesn't have any thematic defense mechanic that lends itself to being a rewardable action. HP Stacking, Lifegain and secondarily Parry. None of which really lends itself to a interesting, cohesive and most importantly balanced mitigation > Reward system.

The reward system has to be tied to something you can use often, so tying it to a 90/120/etc CD probably wont do. It would have to be bound to IB and IB must somehow indirectly create damage greater than FC. But if it is an immediate action (like say IB=Shield swipe proc) then IB just replaces FC as often as the 'proc' bonus is up and be reluctant to use it ever (even defensively) when the proc is down. Thats why the dual gauge system popped into my head. Sure, IB is weaker than FC, but if you use them in equal measure, you get access to lots of damage, in this case, the burst window. IR doesnt have to be the current form, it was just an example to make sure the damage return from using IB is greater than spamming FC alone. But it would require moving around the resources to access IB to have some type of buildable resource you spend on a large buff like IR.

So to expand slightly further:

(assuming all TP costs are removed so base combos are free)

* BB/Eye both return MP.
* All 4 GCD gauge skills cost identical MP (FC/IB/SC/Decimate)
* Using Deliverance MP skills build deliverance gauge. Using Defiance MP skills builds Defiance gauge. Can maintain Parry/Crit passives
* When both defiance and Deliverance gauge bars are full (X uses of each) unlocks Inner release. (Probably 2 or 3 each total as any more than 4-6 starts to take to long for this game, but can vary based on how strictly MP costs gate accessability)
* Inner release is some type of bursty damage buff that is greater than the difference of (FC pot-IB Pot)*X.

The IR window wouldnt have to be focused on spamming FC, it could be any source of damage as long as it is greater than the DPS loss of X IB's to access it. Some random ideas:
* Old IR: Remove MP costs. (Unable to build new dual gauge while in effect). Simple, effective. Boring.
* Old Berzerk: Large plain damage boost (unable to build new dual gauge while in effect). After building bar, would want to build up MP for effective burst window like old berzerk windows.
* Does something massive to upheaval
* Dual gauge cap Unlocks entirely new level 80 skill capstone skill. Feller Cleave. (half joking, but whatever the dual gauge action or buff is would probably be the capstone skill for mastering everything warrior with a cool quest to go with it)

Honestly i dont really care what the reward is, as long as it is greater than the cost of using IB over FC for a few uses so that it is actually worth using. It doesnt really fit the HP stacking theme, but fundamentally, we cant have the reward for defensive actions be more defense. It has to loop back to offense in some way or its DOA. But a return of the dual nature of warrior 30-50 quests would be a welcome addition to gameplay. Would love to see the quest line take a dig at the playerbase "you have been to focused on 1 side of the Force, time to return balance" comment in the quest to unlock the dual gauge reward action lol.

[MagiusNecros]

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

[Kalise]

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

So to expand slightly further:

(assuming all TP costs are removed so base combos are free)

* BB/Eye both return MP.
* All 4 GCD gauge skills cost identical MP (FC/IB/SC/Decimate)
* Using Deliverance MP skills build deliverance gauge. Using Defiance MP skills builds Defiance gauge. Can maintain Parry/Crit passives
* When both defiance and Deliverance gauge bars are full (X uses of each) unlocks Inner release. (Probably 2 or 3 each total as any more than 4-6 starts to take to long for this game, but can vary based on how strictly MP costs gate accessability)
* Inner release is some type of bursty damage buff that is greater than the difference of (FC pot-IB Pot)*X.

My issue with this is what becomes of combos?

Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.

With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)

If the basis is still built on my original ideas for BB to generate Defiance while Path/Eye generate Deliverance. Then it comes back to a thing where people would only use BB combos to generate Defiance, they would never use IB and would instead spend MP on FC, even overcapping on Deliverance because then you're using 10% bonus crit chance FC's instead of using 33% less damaging IB's (Unless potencies were altered)

This is the underlying problem with shared resource costs, players will never want to spend their resources using the lesser damaging skill.

Be it IB vs FC using the same Gauge (Currently)

Be it IB vs FC using MP (Your suggestion)

Be it Storm's Path vs Butcher/Eye (Currently)

Be it Butcher/Eye vs Path (Your suggestion)

The latter 2 being competing for the resource of GCD's.

This is to say nothing about your suggestion doesn't do anything differently about making actively mitigating anything meaningful. You use IB to generate gauge. It doesn't matter when you use IB, it doesn't matter what secondary effect is on IB (Max HP, Damage Reduction, forced Parry etc) you have no reason to "Save" it for when damage is coming in and it's merely a passive reduction in damage if it happens to line up when you cast IB for the resources it generates.

Since this is one of the issues with WAR's design and theme. Very little exists in a way that makes active mitigation convert into something useful. The closest we have is Max HP synergy a la Upheaval's potency increase, but that doesn't actually care if we mitigate with that max HP (In fact, due to Upheaval caring about CURRENT HP it's actually better that we don't mitigate with that HP). Maybe we can also include Vengeance's retaliation damage - But again, this would come under just passively taking damage during the effect.

Some people have previously tried to think of an oGCD Inner Beast skill. But unless the skill is reworked to no longer deal damage... It would simply become an oGCD you used when beneficial (If costing gauge it would just be weaved in during IR. If free it would just be used on CD)

Even if you take WAR's current designs and themes out of the equation and look to its sources and inspiration, such as Berserkers, Vikings and Warriors from previous titles, there still isn't much there to use. For example, a stereotypical Berserker thing is to do increased damage while at lower HP values... But then it's just a case of actively not mitigating damage to lower your HP value for bonus damage.

Maybe there's some form of Counterattack (See: X-2 Berserker with Counterattack, Magick Counter and Evade & Counter, Tactics A2 Berserker with Counter and XI Warrior with Retaliation) that could work. But the issue is trying to turn it into something that cares about mitigating damage.

Especially notable is something that makes use of requiring significant damage to be mitigated like with TBN where you have to break that shield to get the bonus (Compared to Sheltron which you can block an AA that you don't care about and get the same DPS increase to if you used the block vs a Tankbuster)

Honestly i dont really care what the reward is, as long as it is greater than the cost of using IB over FC for a few uses so that it is actually worth using.

Yeah... The trick is trying to make combo's rewarding to use each of them as well as making IB then also worth using over FC.

Both have their inevitable pitfalls.

It's really hard to make these skills balanced when they cost the same resources... Unless you do something like with DRG's FaC/WT where using one lets you then use the other with bonus potency (So for example, FC then lets you use an IB with bonus potency) - The issue in this case is if IB is still the "Defensive" skill and provides a defensive bonus, then it's still just going to be passive free mitigation while you just IB after your FC for damage while the defence is free.

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

I think that all classes need a rework to their level 1-50 skill unlocks.

As far as the class as a whole goes... Something should happen to address the the essentially non-existence of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone at end-game where Defensive Stances are rarely used.

To say nothing about my personal bias (With some other players more objective bias) in regards to Inner Release. My qualm being that it's not fun or interesting. While other's complain about how it works so well with buff stacking meta's because it condenses so much of WAR's overall DPS into a specific 10s burst window that happens to be ideal for buff stacking metas.

[Izsha]

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

I would say yes, but not really for war's sake, but for tanks as a role. War is the cause of some odd problems centered around IB and Holmgang that makes it hard for all tanks to ever be equal defensively because IB is designed to function as the 'always available' defensive option to pair with other items and manage fluff. Pld does this with shelltron to pair with CDs for tank busters and a shield in general for fluff mitigation. Drk does this with TBN. War does this with.....a lower CD on HG to free up CDs to both stack on the remaining busters and as fluff mitigation and an extra CD over the other tanks.

This puts war in 2 states. Deliverance tanking where the extra immunity use in a fight and extra CD makes up for the lack of a 'spammable' mitigation tool. But also means warrior in defiance is utterly beastly on defense as they now have that 'spammable' mitigation tool on top of low immunity timer and extra CD. If you remove the extra stuff (HG timer and extra CD) then defiance warrior is on par with tank stance Drk/Pld but utter crap outside by comparison in DPS stance. Or you have what we have now wich is more balance in DPS stance but OP in defiance. It gets more confusing when you add in easier tank stance for war and some ways to mitigate the tank stance penalty. It ends up being significantly better in some situations if you can leverage those things properly.

As long as warrior has 'spammable' defense locked up in defiance and pld/drk dont, we are stuck in this situation where warrior has 2 states of defense that somehow both need to be equal to pld/drk and thats just not possible.

Then theres the IR thing, which is more of a preference. I hate it the 1 button wonder skill and really enjoyed managing resources for the old zerk windows, but some people seem to like it. But any time a job is changed that happens. I'd like to see it changed, but this one is purely individual preference.
________________________________________

My issue with this is what becomes of combos?

Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.

With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)

(etc more comments)

I must not be explaining it properly. In my example, you would never just spam FC ad nausium over IB because you NEED to use IB to unlock your most powerful action.

Going from 3 to 2 combos isnt the end of the world to me. We already just use 2 combos. So might as well make it official. This still uses your framework where enmity combos are replaced with unchained, so instead of finding a use for the 'enmity combo' we just nix it. In this example, the combos are very similar to today and gain resource for FC/IB (MP). I'm assuming a similar setup to now with a maintenance buff like eye, and a second combo to use when not refreshing eye with slightly higher potency: ie butchers. New combos are eye for buff maintenance and MP. Butchers for potency when eye is up, also with MP (basically replace current gauge with MP)

So the gameplay is basic combo rotation similar to now that gives you resource to use IB/FC/SC/Dec just like now. The change being that resource is MP, not gauge. Using the MP costing skills (current gauge GCD skills) will reward you with your two gauge resources. IB/SC reward you with say, 1/3 defiance gauge. FC/Dec reward you with 1/3 deliverance gauge. After 3 uses of each capping out both gauges you can spend BOTH gauges to access a powerful action/buff. That action/Buff increases damage by more than 600 potency (asssuming same IB/FC potencies as now). So you WANT to use IB over FC 50% of the time. You would never just spam FC forever because that would be suboptimal damage as it would delay the use of your powerful dual gauge expenditure. (all numbers subject to change, but thats the framework)

This system would do 2 things that are the main goals I have:
* encourage balanced use of both IB and FC instead of 'one or the other' that plagues us now.
* Gives you flexibility on WHEN to use IB so you can use it defensively. Pld/Drk skirt this in different ways. Pld doesnt REQUIRE shelltron to proc shield swipe as it can happen via bullwark and passive procs so you can 'save' it for when you need it without heavy punishement. Drk does this by having TBN be functionally DPS neutral out of grit so theres no penalty to saving it when needed. This quick sketch napkin idea does it by requiring IBs in equal number to FCs, but no restriction on when. 3 IBs>3FCs? great. 1IB>2FCs>2IBs>1FC? Great. Pretty flexible to adapt to the fight. You also have a pool of MP that you can stack up to add additinal timing flexibility. In the same way you 'could' spam shelltron on CD, you can also save it for a while with the gauge bar, or be a scrub and spam it asap. At least you are mitigating something, but proper use still involves planning, which is a good thing.

The conundrum now is there is never a reason to use IB over FC because of all the damage penalties. This gives reason to use IB, but doesnt 180 the problem where you now ignore FC and only spamming IB. You HAVE to use IBs intermittently, so a good player will use that by optimizing IB timing in a fight.

Along with this, HG can get the properly longer timer and war wont need extra CDs over drk/pld as they now can access frequent mitigation. Tweak DPS numbers as neccessary so DPS is equal.

[Kurando]

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

Yeah solo play probably isn't best thing to measure a role actions usefulness, as things like Break, Leg Graze etc (those CC type actions) generally work to full effect unlike in most duties where they usually tend to be ineffective.

It's not much Surecast is necessary, but it's a major convenience to use it. Most recent example I can think of is Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect meaning the caster can just focus on damage and/or heals rather than having to reposition themselves somewhere safe. It's generally quicker to use/weave in Surecast than actually move, plus the cooldown is lower than the melee version so casters have quite a bit of flexibility with it. I'd say just experiment a little more with it as a caster (in duties), it's a nice little thing to utilize if you can so definitely recommend it.

[Kalise]

Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect

Ah, I must have missed this part of the text. I didn't realize it was also protection against pulls/knockbacks.

That would push it into the niche category (Wherein it is useful, only in the situations where enemies use pulls/knockbacks, which aren't a consistently used mechanic)

Going from 3 to 2 combos isnt the end of the world to me. We already just use 2 combos. So might as well make it official. This still uses your framework where enmity combos are replaced with unchained, so instead of finding a use for the 'enmity combo' we just nix it.

Ehh... I'm not too sold on the idea of just removing Storm's Path.

Especially given that WAR's basic filler combo is already the least interesting of the Tanks because we don't weave oGCD's in as often (Nor do we have a DoT like Goring Blade to leverage into snapshots. Like how you can squeeze 2 Goring applications into a FoF usage)

I'd much rather work on a system where all 3 combos are situationally useful (More so than having an "Enmity Combo" that is for the most part vestigial. I think the only Tank job I actually choose to use an Enmity combo on is DRK because due to how Power Slash has bonus enmity as well as the DA effect also providing additional bonus enmity, it can mean that that one combo is enough to put me high enough on enmity to not care about it for the rest of a dungeon boss)

Like, PLD has Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within to weave in to their combos (As well as Holy Spirit to leverage while FoF is down - While managing MP for their Requiescat burst)

DRK has Plunge, Salted Earth, Carve and Spit and Dark Arts to weave into their combo (While managing MP. I know sometimes I find myself preparing for a burst window with just spamming Hard Slash > Syphon Strike to maximize MP gain so that DPS now is lower to make up for it with vastly increased DPS later)

WAR is just using GCD skills and maybe Upheaval if it's numerically worth it (I.e. Is HP high enough to make its damage per Gauge worth it (I.e. Are you above ~60% HP?)

I think it could be good design to have WAR put more emphasis on adapting their GCD usage in lieu of sticking a bunch of oGCD's into their kit to weave in during their gameplay.

That action/Buff increases damage by more than 600 potency (asssuming same IB/FC potencies as now). So you WANT to use IB over FC 50% of the time. You would never just spam FC forever because that would be suboptimal damage as it would delay the use of your powerful dual gauge expenditure. (all numbers subject to change, but thats the framework)

I think the issue might end up being just how potent the reward is.

Since, you have to factor in the whole, Gauge spending aspect of the reward. IB + Reward usage isn't just competing against FC's 170 potency increase over IB (So 510 potency for 3x IB) but also competing against your FC's and general combo actions having a whopping 10% additional crit chance (With variable potency bonuses that brings due to Crit being WAR's highest weighted secondary stat) - To say nothing about the additional LB generation that crits bring.

So, even if the reward is strong... It needs to be able to compete with the advantage that basically current WAR rotation + permanent 10% extra crit chance (As opposed to now where it fluctuates between 5% and 10% due to FC usage to prevent overcapping) as Defiance's 10% parry is not a notable effect to weigh into this at all.

* Gives you flexibility on WHEN to use IB so you can use it defensively.

How so?

If it's ultimately a DPS gain to use the reward from capping both gauges, you'll simply spam your rotations and FC, until you've capped Deliverance and then spam IB as soon as you get the MP to use it until you cap Defiance.

Any saving of IB is a DPS loss as that is delaying when you get your reward from the Gauges, which is apparently supposed to be superior to overcapping with FC's.

You can't even substitute an IB during your Deliverance building either, because it will be a DPS loss to not have that full 10% crit chance bonus up as soon as possible.

[Izsha]

The simple solution is to scrap the passive trait bonus. Passive effects are not exactly awe inspiring to start with. It frees up IB use and flexibility (which is far more important than a passive to play around), is one less factor in the damage buff from spending dual gauge (though simply adding adequate damage to the reward either in +crit rate or in any form whatsoever will win out. The only requirement is that the number for spending the gauge outweighs the cost of obtaining the gauge and it automagically works.)

It doesnt have to be this specific idea. It can be anything. The only requirement is that IB rewards you by indirectly increasing damage more than the cost of using FC indefinitely without simply reversing the problem to only use IB and never FC. Any type of system that requires you to use both to obtain a dps boost over using 1 alone will work. The simple solutions i came up with is just to require an equal number of each and then unlock an action that makes up the difference and then some. It sets forth a long term build up and release system that invokes the old Berzerk/IR windows of 4.0 that I really enjoyed. But any system that creates synergy from using both actions will get the job done. (assuming we are unlocking IB from tank stance and working around that new norm).