Warrior Rework Idea

[Kurando]

Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

[Kalise]

I wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

So to expand slightly further:

(assuming all TP costs are removed so base combos are free)

* BB/Eye both return MP.
* All 4 GCD gauge skills cost identical MP (FC/IB/SC/Decimate)
* Using Deliverance MP skills build deliverance gauge. Using Defiance MP skills builds Defiance gauge. Can maintain Parry/Crit passives
* When both defiance and Deliverance gauge bars are full (X uses of each) unlocks Inner release. (Probably 2 or 3 each total as any more than 4-6 starts to take to long for this game, but can vary based on how strictly MP costs gate accessability)
* Inner release is some type of bursty damage buff that is greater than the difference of (FC pot-IB Pot)*X.

My issue with this is what becomes of combos?

Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.

With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)

If the basis is still built on my original ideas for BB to generate Defiance while Path/Eye generate Deliverance. Then it comes back to a thing where people would only use BB combos to generate Defiance, they would never use IB and would instead spend MP on FC, even overcapping on Deliverance because then you're using 10% bonus crit chance FC's instead of using 33% less damaging IB's (Unless potencies were altered)

This is the underlying problem with shared resource costs, players will never want to spend their resources using the lesser damaging skill.

Be it IB vs FC using the same Gauge (Currently)

Be it IB vs FC using MP (Your suggestion)

Be it Storm's Path vs Butcher/Eye (Currently)

Be it Butcher/Eye vs Path (Your suggestion)

The latter 2 being competing for the resource of GCD's.

This is to say nothing about your suggestion doesn't do anything differently about making actively mitigating anything meaningful. You use IB to generate gauge. It doesn't matter when you use IB, it doesn't matter what secondary effect is on IB (Max HP, Damage Reduction, forced Parry etc) you have no reason to "Save" it for when damage is coming in and it's merely a passive reduction in damage if it happens to line up when you cast IB for the resources it generates.

Since this is one of the issues with WAR's design and theme. Very little exists in a way that makes active mitigation convert into something useful. The closest we have is Max HP synergy a la Upheaval's potency increase, but that doesn't actually care if we mitigate with that max HP (In fact, due to Upheaval caring about CURRENT HP it's actually better that we don't mitigate with that HP). Maybe we can also include Vengeance's retaliation damage - But again, this would come under just passively taking damage during the effect.

Some people have previously tried to think of an oGCD Inner Beast skill. But unless the skill is reworked to no longer deal damage... It would simply become an oGCD you used when beneficial (If costing gauge it would just be weaved in during IR. If free it would just be used on CD)

Even if you take WAR's current designs and themes out of the equation and look to its sources and inspiration, such as Berserkers, Vikings and Warriors from previous titles, there still isn't much there to use. For example, a stereotypical Berserker thing is to do increased damage while at lower HP values... But then it's just a case of actively not mitigating damage to lower your HP value for bonus damage.

Maybe there's some form of Counterattack (See: X-2 Berserker with Counterattack, Magick Counter and Evade & Counter, Tactics A2 Berserker with Counter and XI Warrior with Retaliation) that could work. But the issue is trying to turn it into something that cares about mitigating damage.

Especially notable is something that makes use of requiring significant damage to be mitigated like with TBN where you have to break that shield to get the bonus (Compared to Sheltron which you can block an AA that you don't care about and get the same DPS increase to if you used the block vs a Tankbuster)

Honestly i dont really care what the reward is, as long as it is greater than the cost of using IB over FC for a few uses so that it is actually worth using.

Yeah... The trick is trying to make combo's rewarding to use each of them as well as making IB then also worth using over FC.

Both have their inevitable pitfalls.

It's really hard to make these skills balanced when they cost the same resources... Unless you do something like with DRG's FaC/WT where using one lets you then use the other with bonus potency (So for example, FC then lets you use an IB with bonus potency) - The issue in this case is if IB is still the "Defensive" skill and provides a defensive bonus, then it's still just going to be passive free mitigation while you just IB after your FC for damage while the defence is free.

Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?

I think that all classes need a rework to their level 1-50 skill unlocks.

As far as the class as a whole goes... Something should happen to address the the essentially non-existence of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone at end-game where Defensive Stances are rarely used.

To say nothing about my personal bias (With some other players more objective bias) in regards to Inner Release. My qualm being that it's not fun or interesting. While other's complain about how it works so well with buff stacking meta's because it condenses so much of WAR's overall DPS into a specific 10s burst window that happens to be ideal for buff stacking metas.

[Kurando]

That's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.

Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)

Yeah solo play probably isn't best thing to measure a role actions usefulness, as things like Break, Leg Graze etc (those CC type actions) generally work to full effect unlike in most duties where they usually tend to be ineffective.

It's not much Surecast is necessary, but it's a major convenience to use it. Most recent example I can think of is Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect meaning the caster can just focus on damage and/or heals rather than having to reposition themselves somewhere safe. It's generally quicker to use/weave in Surecast than actually move, plus the cooldown is lower than the melee version so casters have quite a bit of flexibility with it. I'd say just experiment a little more with it as a caster (in duties), it's a nice little thing to utilize if you can so definitely recommend it.

[Kalise]

Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect

Ah, I must have missed this part of the text. I didn't realize it was also protection against pulls/knockbacks.

That would push it into the niche category (Wherein it is useful, only in the situations where enemies use pulls/knockbacks, which aren't a consistently used mechanic)

Going from 3 to 2 combos isnt the end of the world to me. We already just use 2 combos. So might as well make it official. This still uses your framework where enmity combos are replaced with unchained, so instead of finding a use for the 'enmity combo' we just nix it.

Ehh... I'm not too sold on the idea of just removing Storm's Path.

Especially given that WAR's basic filler combo is already the least interesting of the Tanks because we don't weave oGCD's in as often (Nor do we have a DoT like Goring Blade to leverage into snapshots. Like how you can squeeze 2 Goring applications into a FoF usage)

I'd much rather work on a system where all 3 combos are situationally useful (More so than having an "Enmity Combo" that is for the most part vestigial. I think the only Tank job I actually choose to use an Enmity combo on is DRK because due to how Power Slash has bonus enmity as well as the DA effect also providing additional bonus enmity, it can mean that that one combo is enough to put me high enough on enmity to not care about it for the rest of a dungeon boss)

Like, PLD has Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within to weave in to their combos (As well as Holy Spirit to leverage while FoF is down - While managing MP for their Requiescat burst)

DRK has Plunge, Salted Earth, Carve and Spit and Dark Arts to weave into their combo (While managing MP. I know sometimes I find myself preparing for a burst window with just spamming Hard Slash > Syphon Strike to maximize MP gain so that DPS now is lower to make up for it with vastly increased DPS later)

WAR is just using GCD skills and maybe Upheaval if it's numerically worth it (I.e. Is HP high enough to make its damage per Gauge worth it (I.e. Are you above ~60% HP?)

I think it could be good design to have WAR put more emphasis on adapting their GCD usage in lieu of sticking a bunch of oGCD's into their kit to weave in during their gameplay.

That action/Buff increases damage by more than 600 potency (asssuming same IB/FC potencies as now). So you WANT to use IB over FC 50% of the time. You would never just spam FC forever because that would be suboptimal damage as it would delay the use of your powerful dual gauge expenditure. (all numbers subject to change, but thats the framework)

I think the issue might end up being just how potent the reward is.

Since, you have to factor in the whole, Gauge spending aspect of the reward. IB + Reward usage isn't just competing against FC's 170 potency increase over IB (So 510 potency for 3x IB) but also competing against your FC's and general combo actions having a whopping 10% additional crit chance (With variable potency bonuses that brings due to Crit being WAR's highest weighted secondary stat) - To say nothing about the additional LB generation that crits bring.

So, even if the reward is strong... It needs to be able to compete with the advantage that basically current WAR rotation + permanent 10% extra crit chance (As opposed to now where it fluctuates between 5% and 10% due to FC usage to prevent overcapping) as Defiance's 10% parry is not a notable effect to weigh into this at all.

* Gives you flexibility on WHEN to use IB so you can use it defensively.

How so?

If it's ultimately a DPS gain to use the reward from capping both gauges, you'll simply spam your rotations and FC, until you've capped Deliverance and then spam IB as soon as you get the MP to use it until you cap Defiance.

Any saving of IB is a DPS loss as that is delaying when you get your reward from the Gauges, which is apparently supposed to be superior to overcapping with FC's.

You can't even substitute an IB during your Deliverance building either, because it will be a DPS loss to not have that full 10% crit chance bonus up as soon as possible.

[Izsha]

The simple solution is to scrap the passive trait bonus. Passive effects are not exactly awe inspiring to start with. It frees up IB use and flexibility (which is far more important than a passive to play around), is one less factor in the damage buff from spending dual gauge (though simply adding adequate damage to the reward either in +crit rate or in any form whatsoever will win out. The only requirement is that the number for spending the gauge outweighs the cost of obtaining the gauge and it automagically works.)

It doesnt have to be this specific idea. It can be anything. The only requirement is that IB rewards you by indirectly increasing damage more than the cost of using FC indefinitely without simply reversing the problem to only use IB and never FC. Any type of system that requires you to use both to obtain a dps boost over using 1 alone will work. The simple solutions i came up with is just to require an equal number of each and then unlock an action that makes up the difference and then some. It sets forth a long term build up and release system that invokes the old Berzerk/IR windows of 4.0 that I really enjoyed. But any system that creates synergy from using both actions will get the job done. (assuming we are unlocking IB from tank stance and working around that new norm).

[Kalise]

The simple solution is to scrap the passive trait bonus. Passive effects are not exactly awe inspiring to start with.

Passive effects are equivalent to buff upkeep. It can be a way to shift gameplay. For example, currently due to the passive being tied to Gauge, we want to sit with at least 50 Gauge at all times and don't really want to spend any until we're about to over cap (Either at 100 or 90 (If about to use Path))

It frees up IB use and flexibility

Barely.

Now you get to maybe weave an IB in if its beneficial to do so instead of a FC. You still cannot save IB to use as a defensive skill like you can Sheltron/TBN because you're still going to want to get your Defiance stacks up ASAP to get the reward.

It's why my idea included the 2 gauges to begin with. Since, with IB using Defiance, it's a trade off, you lose its passive (In this case, it would be 10% max health and 10% healing received) to gain damage and max health (Which offsets the actual usage, and over time once getting the gauge spent back leads to an increase overall in HP)

IB is never competing with FC for resources. IB is never getting spammed whenever available for DPS output. You don't need to time things right as damage is coming to get the defensive bonus allowing flexibility in its usage.

My iteration isn't perfect and could do with more tweaks (Especially since how it ends up playing out is you alternate IB and FC as combo finishers...)

But the 2 major issues with trying to make Inner Beast akin to Sheltron and TBN are:

1) Inner Beast competes for resources with Fell Cleave. In most situations, Fell Cleave wins out in what you want to spend resources on. Attempts to change this will often either lead to IB replacing FC in terms of usage, or removing any flexibility in timing IB with actual damage effects.

See, TBN doesn't compete with Bloodspiller. In fact, it generates Bloodspiller resources when used correctly. This means that you don't have to decide to TBN OR Bloodspiller. You simply do both.

Same deal with Sheltron. It doesn't compete with Holy Spirit. It in fact gains resources for Holy Spirit.

2) Inner Beast deals direct damage. This means that freedom of usage results in the want to use it when available for DPS gain (Especially as it hits harder than any of our other attacks outside of Fell Cleave)

Again, TBN and Sheltron do not have this. Sheltron is close in that it creates an opportunity to Shield Swipe. But at the end of the day, TBN and Sheltron deal 0 damage unless you are using them to mitigate damage to gain the ability to use another skill.

This means that if you wish to rework a skill into being a Sheltron/TBN analogue you'd need to look at something like Infuriate. Wherein you use it to mitigate damage in some way and then it provides you with resources to use FC/IB. That way, the skill itself is not dealing any damage so you have more flexibility in its use, not wanting to use it outside of situations where you get it to generate resources.

The issue at that point becomes, what kind of WAR mechanic can be used to turn "Mitigation" into proccing Infuriate granting its resources?

As I've mentioned previously, it's hard to think of an actual mechanic involving WAR themed defenses. Unless they do a PLD and allow the Parrying of spells (Like they made spells Blockable) and thus WAR could become a Parrydin and get forced parry as a theme (Which is already shown via Raw Intuition)... Though if it was tied to Infuriate and it was still providing 50 gauge, that would be such a significant DPS increase so to make it so that you'd be spamming it for AA's from bosses rather than saving it for big damage spikes (Which is one of the notable things from Sheltron, its DPS gain is relatively minor, with Shield Swipe being only 100 potency and can be triggered naturally and the MP gain from Sheltron also being not particularly large)

It all ends up being pretty tricky to balance. When you have to try and make something unique (So you can't just slap TBN on WAR and call it a day. Even though TBN is the epitome of active mitigation, wherein its effective, it amplifies CD's significantly and it becomes a DPS gain when used against meaningful damage as opposed to if you spammed it against fluff), that is a DPS gain to make its use actually wanted, but not so big of a DPS gain that you explicitly spam it against fluff (Like boss AA's) or go out of your way to stand in AoE's.

I mean, here's some other ideas I've had for such a thing but have ultimately been unable to create a satisfying iteration for:

* Having the inherent ability where you "Counterattack" whenever you parry, dealing some amount of damage back to the attacker with then some "Forced Parry" effect (With RNG parries still occurring as well as Raw Intuition).

Drawbacks are: Ineffective against spell based attackers. Doesn't specifically target damage spikes and thus parrying fluff AA's will also trigger these damage procs.

* When healing yourself while injured (Lily generation mechanic of "While injured") you deal damage to nearby targets, with bonus potency the lower your health is. (Allowing IB to situationally be higher damage than FC)

Drawbacks are: Being healed/shielded actively reduces your damage output. You want to actively take damage to then heal it back up.

* A skill where you absorb a percentage of the incoming damage (Before mitigation) and then deal a counterattack for a certain potency (Increased by max health increases)

Alternative: Reflect a portion of the enemies damage back at them (Before mitigation). Damage dealt is capped at specific potency (Increased by max health increases)

Drawbacks are: Intentionally taking damage to deal more DPS. Fluff damage can be exploited for DPS gains.

Hmmm...

I think that final idea might have some usable design space, reflecting damage would certainly cause the desire to save it for hard hitting attacks. I think the question is trying to figure out where to place it in terms of cost, CD etc.

Maybe as a secondary Defiance spender? Where you then IB during fluff damage and then use this during spike damage? Perhaps as a sort of mirror to Upheaval as an oGCD 25 Gauge spender...

I will take some time and muse on this as well as prior skills and maybe design something.