Gunbreaker gameplay hope and expectations

[shao32]

What is it? Now everything is worthless for you or what? Tank shields worthless, tank mobility worthles witch is a DPS gain prevent the lose of uptime in knockbacks, being unable to do anything against that is annoying and a waste of DPS so they really matters.

Everything what's makes WAR surpass the others is worthless so why still exist in the first place? I don't get you logic.

[Phoenicia]

That still doesn't justify petty vengeance nerfs in a period that all 3 tanks are the most balanced in the games history. most likely MMORPG history.

Fixed it for you. :P

What is it? Now everything is worthless for you or what? Tank shields worthless, tank mobility worthles witch is a DPS gain prevent the lose of uptime in knockbacks, being unable to do anything against that is annoying and a waste of DPS so they really matters.

Everything what's makes WAR surpass the others is worthless so why still exist in the first place? I don't get you logic.

Pretty much yes. If my up-time on boss is 98%, having or not having extra mobility is worthless. I'm doing it anyway. What would having added plunge/TW/Onslaught help me with if I didn't even lose a single GCD for the next 4 minutes or so? If you don't know how to deal with knockbacks on your class, learn2play, it isn't about it not having what the other guy doing with their job because they actually bothered to l2p.

Shields don't reduce amounts of healing done by healer, it only increases overhealing, that's worse that just worthless.

You're just nitpicking and fishing for things to complain about when there really isn't anything. Again, if you REALLY are a DRK night, go cry about PLD stepping on your niche of magic tank because it does it better with Sheltron. And it did more DPS than you for about 15 months of Stormblood. Even that doesn't matter because DRK doesn't die because it didn't have a shield, and it does the MOST DPS between the tanks right now.

[Kalise]

Interesting that you mention blocking. Shields are a core part of PLD's aesthetic. It's part of what gives the job a unique identity. Are the other tanks at a disadvantage because they can't block? Not really. But if you handed out the ability to block to every tank, you'd dilute PLD's identity.

The same is true for lifesteal. It's not mitigation. It does, however, lower your average healing requirements, much like block procs do on PLD. It doesn't need to be on every job. Make an identity out of it.

DRK is essentially already there. Unlock the Souleater heal from Grit. Bloodspiller doesn't need to compete with Fell Cleave. Have it steal some life. Blood Weapon, as it stands, is about siphoning away our opponents' life energy. HP is the only thing we aren't draining. I just want to see them commit hard to a concept, rather than making a partial effort across several.

Look, if you just want DRK to be the Lifesteal job, just say it outright.

Don't pussyfoot around talking about how "Giving away parts of a job dilutes their identity" and how "DRK is almost a lifesteal job" when literally, before DRK even existed as a job, WAR was lifestealing.

It still is lifestealing too.

Back in 1.0 it was lifestealing. In 2.0 it was also lifestealing (Which, was what my last post about this particular fact was referring to and you tried to dismiss it by saying "Don't use 1.0 as a reference because it was bad". I was talking about 2.0 skills).

If anything, DRK having lifestealing, is taking away from WARRIOR'S core identity and handing it out to the new class.

WAR has lifestealing on Storm's Path (Even in Deliverance). WAR has lifestealing on Inner Beast. WAR has lifestealing on Steel Cyclone. WAR gets increased healing as part of Defiance. WAR used to have Bloodbath. WAR used to have Mercy Stroke.

DRK has... Souleater (In Grit only) and Abyssal Drain (With Dark Arts only)

If anything, your logic suggests that DRK should have its lifestealing removed so it can be focused entirely on WAR.

And yeah, giving WAR Battle Litany while preserving all of their present strengths? That sounds even worse than the Shake it off change. Do not want.

If you shelved your Anti-WAR bias and actually read the post, you'd note that "All of their present strengths" would be removed.

With a combination of nerfs, buffs and skill changes to put Tanks on a more even playing field and drastically changing many skills to have more thematic inceptions (I.e. Instead of WAR having a bunch of mitigation CD's, they have more focus onto health buff CD's. Instead of WAR having AoE shield, they have AoE health buff. Instead of WAR having the best mobility skill, all 3(4) tanks have similarly strong mobility skills that aren't DPS gains to spam so they're always available for when mobility is required) etc.

But no, you'd rather just ignore literally everything that isn't "WAR is OP nerf plx!"

[shao32]

Fixed it for you. :P



Pretty much yes. If my up-time on boss is 98%, having or not having extra mobility is worthless. I'm doing it anyway. What would having added plunge/TW/Onslaught help me with if I didn't even lose a single GCD for the next 4 minutes or so? If you don't know how to deal with knockbacks on your class, learn2play, it isn't about it not having what the other guy doing with their job because they actually bothered to l2p.

Shields don't reduce amounts of healing done by healer, it only increases overhealing, that's worse that just worthless.

You're just nitpicking and fishing for things to complain about when there really isn't anything. Again, if you REALLY are a DRK night, go cry about PLD stepping on your niche of magic tank because it does it better with Sheltron. And it did more DPS than you for about 15 months of Stormblood. Even that doesn't matter because DRK doesn't die because it didn't have a shield, and it does the MOST DPS between the tanks right now.

Dear SE, since we consider our DPS and basic mitigation to fullfil our duty it's all what we need please delete cover, passage of arms, divine veil, clemency, intervention, shake it off, onslaught, equilibrium, inner beast, slashing only on WAR, reprisal, TBN effect on others, in other words everything that don't contribute our DPS and our only personal capability of survive since we consider it's worthless, so please no more mobility we are fine with sprint, and no more party utility we can survive anyway, oh tank stances too since they are pretty worthless so put extra emity in our agro combo.

With love, the tank community.

We are gonna have much space for the next expansions.

[Kalise]

-Snip-

If you wasn't just trying to be facetious for the lack of a real argument, you'd know that certain things really aren't as big a deal as you keep trying to make out.

AoE shields on tanks are largely irrelevant. They don't mitigate enough to be notable for the healers on any kind of actually relevant damage to the party. Just like how Tanks LB3 is largely irrelevant for the vast majority of content.

If Tanks shields were like 2-3 times as strong, then yes, it would be a point of discussion because then they could actually impact AoE damage enough to be played around and wouldn't just be completely outmatched by using Reprisal on the boss (You know, that Role Action that all Tanks get)

The difference in mobility for the sake of uptime... Again, I ask you, what content are you doing where you're getting knocked back every 15 seconds to make the difference between Plunge/Onslaught meaningful? Why is PLD so popular when its anti-knockback is on a 3 minute CD surely the job would have 0.1% uptime with all these knockbacks that are apparently everywhere...

Literally the only major thing with mobility is that Plunge is a DPS gain to spam on CD because it uses no resources. So it's not necessarily up when a knockback comes in. Meanwhile, as Onslaught is DPS neutral/loss (Due to slightly less Infuriate CDR and slightly less potency per gauge) it only gets used after the knockback comes in.

[Lyth]

Recast time is the single most important part of a defensive cooldown. Even more so in the case of something like Shake, where you're primarily using it to generate LB. Also, are we really complaining that Shake is weaker than deployed Adlo? Apples and oranges.

People keep parroting "but my math tells me that the tanks ought to be perfectly balanced!" or "the differences aren't all that significant [to me]" when DRK has less than half the representation of the other two tanks in Savage and Ultimate. The community thinks there is a difference, which is why most people go WAR/PLD.

As for WAR as a lifesteal tank, it would be fine if that was WAR's focal point. Thing is, you aren't willing to give up the rest of WAR's advantages to keep it. Saying "this is how things have always been done" doesn't cut it. If you're introducing new jobs, you have to go back and re-evaluate the balance. Otherwise, jobs which were on top will always stay on top. And frankly, it's getting kind of boring always seeing the same comps being run in content.

[Izsha]

People keep parroting "but my math tells me that the tanks ought to be perfectly balanced!" or "the differences aren't all that significant [to me]" when DRK has less than half the representation of the other two tanks in Savage and Ultimate. The community thinks there is a difference, which is why most people go WAR/PLD.

Representation only reflects community perception, fun, and accessibility. None of which have any bearing whatsoever on performance. They can at times be correlated, but as you should know by now, correlation =/= causation. But this has already been covered very well in a post by touch and feel. But lets continue to parrot out the same arguments with the same gaping holes. If representation is a strong factor, then go cut down pld since it is the MOST represented by far. This is not only a weak argument for the obvious flaw of perception is not a direct link to balance, but even worse because you, somehow again, ignore the representation of pld yet claim it matters greatly for war. But thats not biased at all. Thats not war hate. That is fair and balanced reporting right there.

As for WAR as a lifesteal tank, it would be fine if that was WAR's focal point. Thing is, you aren't willing to give up the rest of WAR's advantages to keep it. Saying "this is how things have always been done" doesn't cut it. If you're introducing new jobs, you have to go back and re-evaluate the balance. Otherwise, jobs which were on top will always stay on top. And frankly, it's getting kind of boring always seeing the same comps being run in content.

No, YOU are the person who is using the 'It's how its always been' fallacy. You stated that Drk has always been the lifesteal tank and therefore war shouldnt be based on previous FFs. The response just pointed out that war has actually been lifestealing in this game since day 1 until today, so YOUR appeal to tradition doesnt actually make sense because life steal is wars tradition. But now its being spun as if we arent willing to sacrifice lifesteal. No one ever made that claim. The only point being made was that your appeal to tradition is a bad argument because it can easily be reversed because war actually has the precedent in this case. That was just used as an example proving how bad your argument was, not a demand that war be the lifesteal tank.

[Shurrikhan]

Interesting that you mention blocking. Shields are a core part of PLD's aesthetic. It's part of what gives the job a unique identity. It also gives rise to thematic abilities like Sheltron, Cover, and Passage of Arms. Are the other tanks at a disadvantage because they can't block? Not really. But if you handed out the ability to block to every tank, you'd dilute PLD's identity.

The same is true for lifesteal. It's not mitigation. It does, however, lower your average healing requirements, much like block procs do on PLD. It doesn't need to be on every job. Make an identity out of it.

DRK is essentially already there. Unlock the Souleater heal from Grit. Bloodspiller doesn't need to compete with Fell Cleave. Have it steal some life. Blood Weapon, as it stands, is about siphoning away our opponents' life energy. HP is the only thing we aren't draining. I just want to see them commit hard to a concept, rather than making a partial effort across several.

Wait wait wait wait wait.

"We shouldn't give others Blocking skills because PLD already has it."

"We should take away WAR self-healing identity because DRK already has it. "

Does chronological order hold... no weight here? Without it, the logic would be sound, but... WAR was far more the self-healer than DRK has ever been. Argue for a reshuffling of themes for better aesthetic fits all you like, but a "first in takes the theme exclusively" warrant is not usable by the second, and historically lesser, user.

[shao32]

snip

Just because you don't give any value to the raid utility, or the capability to get back to the fight and don't loose uptime with translate to a DPS gain, or just save a lot of team effort with you job capabilitys like holmgang or you overall defense with leads to more raid DPS and overall smothers and safest runs doesn't mean they don't have any value.

You base you "balance" on DPS numbers and call it a day when is more much more, the impact of you skills with the content and how WAR just get in to other tanks domains this expansion.

Savage, are you been in there? Omega tiers are plaged by knockbacks and mechanics that force you to run far of the boss and omega M/F in just one example of how useful they are, but I can give you more like phantom train, ex-death, neo exdeath, midgarshorm, chaos, kefka.

How many times despite some WAR mains agreed you job have the edge and tools that have been out of place this expansion are going to keep this? The best tank 6 years, that's the entire FFXIV life since ARR, and keep saying the fault is the other tanks, it's not a coincidence it's a problem you job have to much and they will be ever the top until it's get change for the good of the role balance, it's doesn't matter how much you want to make WAR look weak when is not it's don't change the reality.

I can get you are angry or just annoyed for this but don't be blind either and deny what is obvious.

[Lyth]

...

It feels like you're arguing the case for me. Community perception, fun, and accessibility are probably some of the most important factors in designing a game. Why would you ignore these things?

PLD and WAR ratios in Savage and Ultimate are fairly close to 1:1. I think that PLD's design changes in Stormblood have been for the better. There's a clear focus/theme to the job. If anything, I think that PLD is in need of a few QoL changes, such as making AoE more enjoyable and making Veil apply without a healing proc.

If you want WAR to focus on lifesteal, then I think we should change some of the design rules that seem to be followed to date. Perhaps when Gunbreaker comes out, give it a relatively more powerful burst window than IR/Fell Cleave. Perhaps give DRK superior mobility and cheaper snap enmity. Remove the recast advantage from Holmgang and give it the healing requirement from Living Dead. After all, you are the lifesteal tank.

You want lifesteal? Double down on it. That's all I ask. The reason why I mention DRK's history at all is because I think it's a better thematic fit. But if you're willing to commit hard to it, by all means, go ahead. I am.

...

What matters is job identity. Blocking isn't a unique PLD feature because they "got there first". It's because it's a core part of the job identity and the game/series lore. Cover is an iconic Final Fantasy ability. If every job had it, it would dilute that identity.

Chronological order, as far as historical design decisions in this game go, doesn't matter one whit. 1.x was a Calamity, a tragedy. "If history must be rewritten, then let it be unwritten..."