Gunbreaker gameplay hope and expectations

[Nedkel]

I could see DRK having way more Crit stat on his EQ than war and war getting tenacity, which bias the dps number by significant percent. Not only that, but DRK having DH could also affect the numbers, since he will have higher chances than 0 to apply the DH and this is additional damage added up, because its better to proc a DH and CRIT than CRIT alone.
Im not sure what gear they have choose for warrior but it doesnt seem right, when they have tenacity in it.

I dont think the DPS numbers you give in this table are reliable, mainly due to the gear selection for each job. Tanks mainly are sharing everything expect weapon the stats difference between both is just too large, if a war has about 600 less crit than DRK then there is a problem, since it is not only his main and super bis stat, but it is also bis DPS stat in general. No wonder why war is behind in DPS in comparison to DRK.

[Phoenicia]

I could see DRK having way more Crit stat on his EQ than war and war getting tenacity, which bias the dps number by significant percent. Not only that, but DRK having DH could also affect the numbers, since he will have higher chances than 0 to apply the DH and this is additional damage added up, because its better to proc a DH and CRIT than CRIT alone.
Im not sure what gear they have choose for warrior but it doesnt seem right, when they have tenacity in it.

I dont think the DPS numbers you give in this table are reliable, mainly due to the gear selection for each job. Tanks mainly are sharing everything expect weapon the stats difference between both is just too large, if a war has about 600 less crit than DRK then there is a problem, since it is not only his main and super bis stat, but it is also bis DPS stat in general. No wonder why war is behind in DPS in comparison to DRK.

People use a magnifying glass to find fault even when none is present. I will explain what the table means.

These stats provide each class the MAXIMUM DPS each class could achieve with the available gear. The stats in themselves are irrelevant.

The table shows with the abilities available to the jobs have and gear available to them, and when 100% up-time and relevant buffs are present: DRK deals the highest DPS and WAR deals the lowest.

However, said numbers are at a ~100 difference, when we're breaking the 6000, it is less than 2.8% difference. Leading to the conclusion: Negligible.

As for the stats themselves, you may be unaware of the mechanics that WAR operates under and/or are unaware of the implications those mechanics affect its DPS.

* Inner Release is a GUARANTEED critical and direct hit so it changes the value of these 2 stats. It also contributes 40% of WAR's overall DPS.

* Critical Hit WAR mainly benefits from the crit multiplier more than the crit chance from the stat itself.

* Direct Hit is a bad stat on WAR because ~40% of its DPS (the IR window) is completely unaffected by it, this cuts DH value by 40%. PLD and DRK benefit from it as their very close second best stat (where you can't add crit, add DH).

* Because IR means 100% CDH, WAR CANNOT benefit from Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Chain Strategem and The Spear buffs during IR window. This means when those buffs are NOT there, WAR has it better than PLD/DRK, but when they ARE present, PLD/DRK get more "oomf" into their DPS.

* Tenacity is melded to break a threshold and gain a 1% DPS increase. That and Tenacity is more DPS increase for WAR than DH, refer to point 3.

* Why did you decide to ignore that WAR has twice the determination of the other two jobs? Determination is WAR's second best stat.

The numbers provided in the table are as reliable as they could get. The tables also mention that these numbers will vary heavily in actual fights.

[Nedkel]

I know this chart is playing a perfect rotation and calculates it to the exact decimal however.
Stats does matter.

Idk who were choosing the EQ for War but it is not probably the bis one.
Crit stat is superior to the determination, because it increases the crit damage as well as the % chance to proc it, thats why it has been found to be the best DPS giving stat, because it does not increase the DPS by a flat value each point, but rather exponentially with each point giving crit chances and damage, multiplying each other in the final results.
Breaking the 1% threshold on warrior, you are basically investing almost a 400 stat points into the stat, which could have been given to the crit stat.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1699235812
While for example getting 300 crit from 2104 crit would mean in 2.8% dps gain outside IR and more due to the crit damage boosting guaranteed crits from IR.
The reason why crit will always be bis on warrior is because it scales with FC damage with IR turned on by a giant %.
Having 2k crit and 1k det is far far better than having 2k det and 1k crit on warrior, the first one gains 5% damage increase in his IR stance and will be higher anyway outside of it, simple.

And comparing the multipliers on both highest dps jobs on your chart it looks like this:
If you add up everything, on DRK and War side, all the multipliers, the war is going to be in disadvantage to DRK, it is pure math.
DRK multipliers in are:
Crit - 1.156864
Det - 1.056
DH - 1.02725
Tnc - 1.014
Sks - 1.07
A total 1.36158 multiplier for DRK, and 1.324114 when you add everything up
While the War has
Crit - 1.1176
Det - 1.112
DH - 1.0
Ten - 1.032
sks - 1.047
A total of 1.34281 multiplier, and 1.3086 when you add everything up.

Warrior is at least 2% in disadvantage due to the eq mismanagement in comparison to the DRK, this is pretty much what caused the difference in your table.
Also i want to know what kind of calculation is behind those numbers, im not sure does it count the animation clipping and double weaving on DRK which cause the significant drop in dps in real game, does it count the % crit damage bonus to the IR warrior stance?
I dont believe warrior could have less dps than DRK. Sure DRK may seem to have even dps in perfect world scenario, however my experience and FFlogs stats says completely different story. DRK performance is much much more vulnerable to the real life issues such as latency, FPS loss, input lag and stuff like that, you cant just get a calculating tool and say that this class could dish out the same dps as easy peasy warrior.
Drk heavily relay on the player side reliability, hence thats why DRK is lower dps even in comparison to PLD in high percentile, someone could be the best in the world, if he gets a latency jumps up to 100 ms then you could forget about it he will do 100% on his job.
DRK is higher sustained dps, but the game does not give a stationary target which you could hit for over 10+ minutes straight, warrior does higher damage because his burst windows deals massive amount of damage even higher than DPS jobs, this is why this class performs better and he is super easy to play with. I found myself doing about 800-1k damage more at stone sky sea on warrior than i do on my DRK with the same equipment.

[shao32]

snip

WAR have better movility with Onslaught since it have lower recast, its on demand whenever he wants and have better range that plunge 20yalms vs 15 yalms and anti-knockback on holmgang and inner release with obviously you will not use those skills for that but if sincs with a mechanic is another adventage that WAR enjoy.

so tell me how WAR is the bottom on mitigation when it have:

-rampart 20s 90 recast
-vengeance 15s 120 recast
-thrill of battle 20s 120 recast (its not mitigation but its efective HP)
-raw intuition 20s 90 recast only physical
-inner beast 6s on demand as longer you have gaude
-holmgang 6s 180 recast

vs

PLD:

-rampart 20s, 90s recast
-sentinel 10s, 180s recast
-sheltron 10s, 5s recast
-bulwark it's not effective against TB
-hallowed ground 10s, 420s recast

DRK:

-rampart 20s, 90s recast
-shadow wall 10s, 120s recast
-the blackest night 7s, 15s recast
-dark mind 10s, 60s recast only magic
-living dead 10s precast, walking dead 10s, 300 recast

so WAR have 4-5 (depending of the stance) efective CDs and 5-6 on physical encounters vs 4 efective cds on PLD 1 of then being usable 1-2 per fight as much and 4 CD'S (5 against magical TB) on DRK and DRKs want to avoid living dead as much as posible so it leave then with 3-4 most of the time, so WAR wins.

on defiance WAR mitigate much more that PLD and DRK, not only they have more CDs with longer duration and shorted recast but his 25% extra HP represents the same efective HP that grit/shield 20% mitigation plus they will have stronger shields from AST and SCH, being able to stack several amounts of CDs with inner beast vs the 1 DRK and PLD have to spend with sheltron/TBN having way more overall mitigation and on top of that being able to heal part of the damage with equilibirum every single TB for free for not mention the constant 6s of inner beast mitigation and selfhealing WAR is enjoying constantly when is on defiance outside of TB.

so while WAR is a bit limited on deliverance (not really) they overall mitigation and self-healing surpass by far the other 2 in defiance and they don't depend more of others that the other tanks.

[Phoenicia]

Snip

The ones who chose the equipment in those tables are the players that mathed out all the tables you are linking to. You are basically telling me those tables are wrong because of the other tables made by the same people say so even though THEY ARE THE SAME THING THEY BASED FIRST TABLES ON.

You're over-complicating all of this. You are overvaluing stats and misusing them. It is not the stats that matter. It is how the jobs are.

It's not just calculations. They literally put on the gear, and whacked the dummy in the best way possible and got those numbers a few times then averaged those numbers. It is not just "we think so", it is "we tested it and this is the result".

WAR does NOT benefit from DH the same as the other two. Put WAR in the DRK's best gear and it LOSES damage. THIS IS PART OF HOW BALANCING JOBS WORKS! So why are you mad that WAR's BiS does NOT have the worst stat for it? Is it because it's the best stat for the others? I didn't know this was a case of "they have, so why can't it?"

BLM wearing SMN gear loses DPS, SMN in BLM gear loses DPS. The way you compare them is: You put BLM in the best gear available to it (SPS and Crit) and SMN in the best gear available (Crit and DH) then compare their MAXIMUM DPS against each other. Same is true for ANY role.

When you compare MNK and NIN, do you ask MNK to wear DEX gear so that it has the same stats as NIN to make it "fair"? Or do you have both jobs wear their best gear, provide them the buffs they need and see where they stand from there?

As for your personal DPS... That's neither here nor there. We do not know you. Are you someone who ranks at the top of the world on FFLogs? Do you even play DRK optimally? You could be, I don't mean any offence here, a crap DRK but excellent WAR. The fact that you DRK is 1k DPS behind your WAR means you REALLY aren't good at DRK. Specially in a dummy test like Stone, Sky and Sea. This is a serious case of "I can't press my buttons". Even when accounting that DRK doesn't bring it's own slashing resist down and loses ~10% DPS.

I play PLD and DRK in SB and I have not partied with a WAR (or any co-tank for that matter) that beats my DPS since 4.0, PLD must be OP, right? It's definitely NOT me that's above the average PF glue sniffing tanks that spam aggro combo in tank stance when off-tanking. It's my class being OP.

This isn't a "mine is bigger than yours" discussion. It is a WAR balance discussion (ironically in a Gunbreaker thread) where people claim WAR is far superior in DPS. The fact of the matter, the best damage AVAILABLE to WAR is lower than the best damage AVAILABLE to DRK. Case closed.

[Kalise]

so while WAR is a bit limited on deliverance (not really) they overall mitigation and self-healing surpass by far the other 2 in defiance and they don't depend more of others that the other tanks.

I like the fact you keep mentioning Inner Beast's 20% mitigation like it's a thing massively in the favour of WAR and seem to forget that PLD and DRK both get the same 20% damage reduction on Shield Oath and Grit 100% of the time with infinite duration while they're in the stance.

As far as self healing goes, it won't do crap against Tankbusters because in order to self heal, you have to take the damage and survive. But if you survived the TB then you no longer care about self healing because the healers will top you off. This is where damage reduction is so important, which WAR's have less of than other tanks unless they spend gauge on Inner Beast then they can equal them against specifically Physical TB's (If it's magical then DRK outshines both because Dark Mind)

Not to mention you also missed off things like PLD using Shirk to enable Cover or Intervention which will allow them to create damage reduction effects.

[Phoenicia]

God darnit. I need to start putting my posts in a document first. I closed my page and lost everything I typed. I will try to redo most of it, excuse me if the thought train are all over the place lol.

.....Then as far as mitigation and aggro goes, WAR's are the bottom of the totem pole in terms of mitigation, so if Tank Stances were a thing,----.

It is actually quite the opposite. Also I see you are still convinced buffs tack additive. Try this: Shield Oath 20%, Rampart 20%, Sentinel 40% and Sheltron 30%. Already passing the 100% mark, Why are you not taking 0 damage from being hit?

Comparing cooldowns in a bubble is useless. What matters is how much damage over an encounter can a class reduce. All of WAR's CD are short, and this is the reason why it's keeping up/pulling ahead even though PLD has stronger CDs (40% sentinel and immunity).

Currently, if you exclude invulnaribilities, PLD and DRK mitigate more than WAR by using Sheltron and TBN respectively on top of other CDs. Rampart + Sheltron is 47% damage reduction which is nuts. It makes Tail End (Strongest single hit TB in this tier I think) hits for 64k instead of 120k with this combo. WAR is only keeping up because Holmgang having a short cooldown frees up more of the WAR's (already superior in number) CDs to be stacked together. To take Tail's End without Holmgang WAR uses Vengeance + Raw Intuition for the same effect of Rampart + Sheltron.

Adding tank stances not only provide the stances' passive mitigation, but also regains the access to Inner Beast! So how is WAR "behind" in mitigation?

ShO = Grit ~= Defiance. (Yes, you don't compare ShO and Grit to IB, you compare it to Defiance. IB is compared to TBN and Sheltron)

Currently, tanks have 78-ish thousand health. I'll round up to 80k. If a boss hits 10k/hit:

PLD/DRK: boss hits 8k. Needs 10 hits to kill you.

WAR: Health is 100k, still needs 10 hits to kill you.

Remember all mitigation should be looked at in the form of Effective Health. 20% damage reduction effectively increased your health from 80k to 100k, which is a 25% increase, which is the exact effect of Defiance.

Defiance actually has an advantage here, after 2 hits, you can turn it off and you're at 80k health and still only take 8 hits to die. PLD/DRK turning off tank stance at 2 hits they would be at 64k HP, you will die in 7 hits (6.4 actually but yeah, integers).

Defiance has front-loaded mitigation. This "advantage" is countered by the fact when you enter defiance at any health level your effective health remains the same as current health.

In the above scenario, at 60k, entering defiance you still die after 6 hits. Meanwhile PLD/DRK would need 8 hits to die.

This gives the WAR the advantage of front-loading mitigation then back-loading healing by turning on defiance to take 2 hits then switch to and stay in deliverance until low health, go back into Defiance to receive increased heals before TB. (IB buff is not tied to Defiance, only usage, you keep the 20% reduction after turning it off).

See why Defiance and Deliverance are oGCD? Well, Defiance does not increase oGCD heals and spell healing by only 5%, this is countered by the warrior's ability to heal itself through Equilibrium, Storm's Path and Inner Beast.

Speaking of Inner Beast... It is the best on demand ability.

Sheltron blocks only 1 hit, is a "block" so crits are prioritized against it, depends on what shield you have (22% to 30%), Oath Gauge can be slow in Sword Oath (10 autos take 22 seconds) or excruciatingly slow in Shield Oath needing 20 blocks (lolRNG). Yes Holy Spirit can fill the gauge, but that's clunky and ruins your DPS.

TBN has a damage cap (16k at 80k max HP), solid 15s CD, costs 2400 MP. Needs to actually break to give 50 gauge so it doesn't net a DPS loss.

IB has no damage cap. Provides damage of 350 potency that IGNORES Defiance, making it 435 potency (not counting buffs). heals 88% of the damage it deals (6.5k in my gear and if I CDH during IR it's 17k heal). Reduces 20% damage regardless of type. Takes WAR 6 GCDs to build 50 gauge not counting IR & Infuriate. We are easily looking at 33~45% uptime. This IS taking into account the GCD of IB delays gauge building by 1 GCD.

Sheltron is strong enough on its own and does wonders when coupled with another CD (with ramparts it 47% and with Sentinel it's 66%). But it is bad in multi-target or against multi-hit TBs (ala Akh morn). It can't work against O3S and Shinryu TBs where the TB has a guaranteed crit unless you couple in Awareness. Being a block means you can't block while casting or stunned. Being tied to a gauge though means you can pool gauge for multiple uses (twice).

TBN on its own is actually a big lacking because of its damage reduction being capped at 16k. Being a barrier type, it is similar to being a "healing" 20% of your HP as long as it breaks. This increases in effectiveness when coupled with CDs though. Also having a fixed 15s CD makes it impossible to pool usages, you can't use TBN rapidly to reduce damage over an extended period. Having to completely break to get the 50 gauge makes it a bit awkward when you out-gear content, so as you gear up, there are less things in a fight that can break it.

Inner Beast on the other hand has only one negative: It replaces Fell Cleave in the rotation. It can pump up your health before TB (if healers don't already) and can be used again to heal after. It also can be pooled a lot more than twice (3 with Infuriate, 8 with IR and Infuriate) to heal for crazy amounts and its mitigation with staggered usages is extremely good. Inner Beast's buff isn't tied to Defiance, you can go into Deliverance after using it and keep the mitigation for a while. i.e. IB > IR+Fell Cleavex5> Defiance+IB.

So with all the above, I do not see how a WAR is behind PLD or DRK in personal mitigation when using tank stances. This does not mean WAR won't rely on healers, they need more or less as much healing as the other tanks. It just mitigates more things more often.

EDIT: This was posted to mention that why WARs dislike nerfs to their niche of being the best DPS tank as they are the only tank that pays heavy mitigation loss for it (losing tank stance AND on-demand CD).

[Kalise]

Also I see you are still convinced buffs tack additive.

I am not, I'm well aware of that defensive buffs are multiplicative, so that multiple instances of Damage Reduction suffer diminishing returns.

So stacking CD's is not as potent as it would seem on paper, but that's why having multiple tools available can be strong since PLD and DRK can both just hop into Defensive Stance basically whenever (It costs a GCD) for a free Rampart in addition to any other CD they wish to use along side it.

Shield Oath + Rampart = 36% damage reduction on a 90s CD. Every 90s.
Shield Oath + Sentinel = 52% damage reduction.
With of course, Shelltron to toss on top of these.

Same thing for DRK. Grit + Shadow Wall = 44% damage reduction. 120s CD
DRK also has the Grit + Rampart for 36%. DR 90s CD
Both can have TBN's on top for 20% more EHP.

If it's Magical then DRK has the Grit + Dark Mind for the 44% DR (With TBN on top) with a mere 60s CD!

DRK has the bonus effect of not even needing a GCD to swap back out of Grit.

Meanwhile WAR, relies upon getting healed after swapping to Defiance for it to give a bonus. Also spending Gauge to activate IB's 20% DR which the other tanks get instantly upon entering defensive stance. Even with the 45% ideal uptime, that's still 55% less uptime than both other Tanks gain for their Tank stances from the second that they swap to the second that they leave. With the only advantage being that you can sit in Defiance and use a IB right before you swap to Deliverance (But there's a 10s CD between swapping stances on WAR so outside of Unchained it's more punishing if you need to swap to get that bonus 20% mitigation for a single hit, such as a TB)

In extended periods of damage, WAR in Defiance starts to balance things out, because it then gains access to its plethora of self-healing mitigation which is its way of balancing against its inferior damage reduction mitigation. But then also note that DRK itself has self healing, especially in Grit where Souleater will heal for 100% of the damage it deals (Compared to Storm's Path's 50%) in addition to having DA'd Abyssal Drain and Sole Survivor CD (On an unrelated side note: Anyone else want FSH to have a skill called Sole Survivor for pun related reasons?)

WAR lacks somewhat in on demand damage reduction relying mostly on 120s CD stacking or taking pretty notable DPS penalties in order to gain IB bonuses. But they end up averaging out when comparing over time mitigation when their self healing comes into play in Defiance. Though the issue is that Defiance (Well, defensive stances as a whole) are not meta. While PLD and DRK gain access to their on demand mitigation in DPS stance as well as have less DPS loss for a quick swap to Tank Stance for a free 0 CD 20% DR boost to empower otherwise mediocre short CD's they can access through Role Actions.

[Phoenicia]

Meanwhile WAR, relies upon getting healed after swapping to Defiance for it to give a bonus. Also spending Gauge to activate IB's 20% DR which the other tanks get instantly upon entering defensive stance. Even with the 45% ideal uptime, that's still 55% less uptime than both other Tanks gain for their Tank stances from the second that they swap to the second that they leave.

Again, you are comparing Inner Beast to Shield Oath/Grit.. "DEFIANCE" is WAR's Shield Oath. Inner Beast is WAR's Sheltron/TBN. Understandable since 20% damage reduction is the common grounds.

Yes, WAR won't get the 20% reduction until they activate IB, but as long as all 3 tanks are sitting in Defiance, WAR edges the mitigation race.

As you already know, damage reduction is not the only form of "mitigation". It is the best in death prevention, but not the only way to survive. Yes, WAR reduces less damage in its stance, but by receiving more healing, reducing more damage with its CDs compared to the other two tanks, "ignoring" huge portions with Holmgang, and healing massive amounts with Equilibrium, IB and SP, WAR mitigates more damage than either PLD or DRK sitting in their respective tank stance.

[Kalise]

Again, you are comparing Inner Beast to Shield Oath/Grit.. "DEFIANCE" is WAR's Shield Oath. Inner Beast is WAR's Sheltron/TBN. Understandable since 20% damage reduction is the common grounds.

Yes, since other people keep talking about IB's damage reduction.

Also, IB is the only "On demand" mitigation WAR has from Defensive Stance. Which, when the current meta is to be in DPS Stance as much as possible, is very relevant for comparison. PLD/DRK get their Sheltron/TBN in DPS Stance and they have on demand 20% DR from activating Tank Stance.

WAR gets no active mitigation in DPS Stance (Outside Storm's Path 50% damage to life) and doesn't get on demand benefit from Tank Stance outside of IB or a healer healing them.

Outside of this, I mentioned that in sustained Tank Stance situations, WAR gains a lot of momentum in "Mitigation" because you can then factor in self-healing. In addition to them also getting a significant boost when they rely on Holmgang. However, you then should be reminded that until Tank Stances become meta again for MT's that WAR's self healing from inside Defiance is drastically reduced in value. Since, outside of very extreme scenarios it essentially doesn't exist because you want to be in DPS Stance and spending all your Gauge on Fell Cleaves.