Gender locked race?

[Gwenorai]

-snip-

You've made some great points, more than enough for me to dissect I'll give you that! Honestly, I think you've matched all my points - to the point where I'm worried but still going to stand strong to see how this goes. I would have preferred the 'mixed race' to another cat race. Ah, one thing I will tackle is the whole Yoshida's vision - I don't think that's rightfully true. I think that the fact that Matsuno Yasumi is now working on this expansion with him that he has a lot of ways as well, especially as the creator of the Viera and of course, the developer of FF12 and tactics.

In the end, I guess we'll see. But it just seems so odd if this is the road that they're going to go. Well at least to me. But I'll still speculate as it gives me something to do and I get to pick apart what was said, even if it looks a little too much into things and what was said. Like, the whole 'This is likely the last race.' comment, and how Viera was handled in the past...

xD At least there's one thing we can be looking out for. Fat chocobo hoodie? Hmm, maybe we'll get another fat mount.

[Shippuu]

This is what we get with a new playable race(before expansion):

1. An npc in game to represent/reveal in the last main patch of the current expansion
2. Clan info
3. gender info
4. their society structure
5. Where they come from

Both are handled differently and are treated differently by SE themselves if we were to get an unknown race we would get a surge of information on them at Tokyo on top of more Viera information. By this point we had more information on Au Ra but Viera are going to be better implemented with how they have set them up something i feel SE learned from Au Ra implementation being oh there here neat. So i then gotta ask why would SE repeat the Au Ra mistake while simultaneously also avoiding it its weird :s

So of this list, there would potentially be only 1 thing on the list that we wouldn't get for the new Race (if there is one), and that's that there was no in game NPC hinting/representing this race. (Which we can't even say for certain considering we haven't had all the patch story delivered to us).

Au Ra's poor implementation was less to do with groundwork set up before they arrived, and more to do with zero impact, relevancy, or even appearing in the entire Heavensward story/areas outside of a total of about 3-4 NPC's. A new race could be more important to the 5.0 story and it would be the same as "learning from the implementation of Au Ra". We could be going to wherever this new race is from, which would immediately put it on being better implemented than the Au Ra was in Heavensward.
Even then, Au Ra was implemented poorly, but it didn't do anything to really negatively affect the game. So even if they did the exact same thing, it's not like it's even really an issue in the first place? It's certainly not a big enough issue to even consider not doing it because of that.

Ah, one thing I will tackle is the whole Yoshida's vision - I don't think that's rightfully true. I think that the fact that Matsuno Yasumi is now working on this expansion with him that he has a lot of ways as well, especially as the creator of the Viera and of course, the developer of FF12 and tactics.

That's a pretty big assumption there unless you have proof? Matsuno worked in collaboration for the Ivalice raid series, we have little pointing to him being further involved in the development of the expansion (and considering they're bringing in new guest creators for the next raid, he's likely not helping).
But if they stated he is working as a new position on the expansion and I missed it, I'd love to see.

[Gwenorai]

-snip-

Aye, this was from hearsay - I can't find anything but the Livestream where they're talking about the 24man. So, you're right - but I still think there's still a point there. That if Matsuno wrote the lore, then Matsuno also has a say on what happens to his creations and also has to go through him. Unless you think Yoshida can simply go around his vision? I'm not stating you said this, I'm genuinely curious on your take on the matter regarding this.

[Rokke]

There's zero hints to the vast majority of things added in expansions. Where's the rule that everything has to have some hint to being added? Where was the hint of the Vath, Vanu Vanu, Kojin, Ananta, Namazu, Nu Mou, Pixies, Dwarves? These are all new races added to the game out of no-where with zero hints or clues leading up to them until they were straight up announced (in before they're somehow different because they're beast tribes).

Au Ra were implemented with a complete lack of lore and a complete lack of actual integration. All we had for them was that Yugiri was one and they were from the Far East (and a small mention in the Wind-Up Odin flavor text), and Sidurgu was from a group that came to Eorzea and got wiped out by Ishgardians. The majority of Au Ra lore for Heavensward came from Koji's naming convention post on the forums. We didn't get any kind of actual integration for Au Ra until the expansion AFTER Heavensward. A new unannounced race could be no different. We come across stuff all the time that hadn't existed to us before but the setting acts like they've been around the whole time.

Comparing beast tribes to playable races is a stretch. With Yugiri’s intro we were shown there is a race with a strange tail + horns/ears, that had a face unique enough where it might offput people who’d never seen it, that was from the Far East- a place that had lost badly in a recent skirmish with Garlemald. While we definitely didn’t know the various intricacies of all 51 tribes of Xaela, we did have a starting point. Then Au Ra were confirmed and we got to see what Yugiri might look like under her mask through the reveal art work. Then at a later fanfest we got to see in the game character creation screen, the subrace, the 3D models, the 3D models wandering Ishgard, etc.

Au Ra did not suddenly come into existence at the moment of their reveal.

And the announcement of a new race and that Viera+new race are genderlocked won't be addressed when it's announced? It couldn't possibly be why Yoshida is refusing to comment on if male viera are confirmed? That they have plans to go into more detail when they reveal something else?

Of course theres a possibility of something else. I just don't think it will play out with a something else, hence my comments in this thread.

It took a considerable time (years) to finally get the male bunny outfit put into the game, and it's rarely used. If anything that's a knock against it that despite people being vocal about it, doesn't mean it's something a majority of players want. And considering the majority of the time the Q&A's have their questions pre-screened, it's easy for him avoid having to deal with that question outside of direct interviews. And again, Blue Mage is going to be the same situation. He knows how to handle Q&A's and interviews, he's shown he's quite skilled and avoiding answering things or explaining his reasoning even if it's unpopular.

And after years of attempting to dodge the question we got the confirmation of bunny suits being in the works and then a few more years of being dogged about it's progress and they were revealed at the same con they were originally asked for.

In person requests started in the west and continued until JP and even Korea joined in. Prescreened questions are a thing, yes, but unless they plan only taking written in questions from this point on, its inevitable for a comment to slip through.

he was "prescreened" as well, after all.

[Shippuu]

Aye, this was from hearsay - I can't find anything but the Livestream where they're talking about the 24man. So, you're right - but I still think there's still a point there. That if Matsuno wrote the lore, then Matsuno also has a say on what happens to his creations and also has to go through him. Unless you think Yoshida can simply go around his vision? I'm not stating you said this, I'm genuinely curious on your take on the matter regarding this.

Ultimately FFXIV is under Yoshida's direction, so even if Matsuno disagreed I feel Yoshida ultimately can overrule it. Remeber, Yoshida isn't just director/produce of FFXIV, but also a member of the board of directors for Square Enix, and head of SE's Business Division 5. He's much higher on the totem pole so to speak so his decisions can certainly supersede Matsuno's. I'm sure Yoshida would certainly consider Matsuno's point of view regarding the issue, but Matsuno definitely doesn't call the shots regarding what ultimately gets put into the game.

You also seem to be implying that Matsuno would be for the inclusion of playable male Viera in the first place, which may not be the case. (He was the one who established that FFXIV's male Viera "simply do not exist to us." and to go looking for them would lead to disappointment. So...)

[Shippuu]

Comparing beast tribes to playable races is a stretch.

It really isn't. They're both new races that have history, lore, and complex relationships with the people of Hydalaen and are part of societies we knew little to nothing about prior to their implementation into the game. The only difference is we would get to play as one, and considering almost nothing about the game's story has any impact about what race you are outside of a comment or two there's little impact there.
We're about to get at least female Viera playable, who are severely seclusive and not seen anywhere else in the world until they're going to be everywhere come 5.0, including the 2.0 story. We also haven't even been to, or see half of the world of Hydalaen, there's a whole lot out there we have no clue about until SE puts it into their game.

Au Ra did not suddenly come into existence at the moment of their reveal.

Except for all intents and purposes, they did. Their inclusion in Heavensward as a playable race offered virtually nothing new to the game's experiencable story. No story acknowledged them, even when you encounter the few other Au Ra that were present in Heavensward (Sidurgu and Mide, for example.) They don't go majorly out of their way. There was no precedence before, and Yugiri talked almost nothing about her race, only that she had a funny tail and ears/horns.

A new race absolutely does not need to have any kind of build up whatsoever. There's no magical rule set forth by word of god that this has to happen. The most negative impact of just dropping a race without build up is some minor lore inconsisties and that's it.

In person requests started in the west and continued until JP and even Korea joined in. Prescreened questions are a thing, yes, but unless they plan only taking written in questions from this point on, its inevitable for a comment to slip through.

It's very rare they take full on live Q&A, with people lining up. Almost every one of their Q&A has been collecting questions before hand and picking which to answer. But of course he's going to be asked about them inevitably. And he is constantly asked about plenty of things consistently, like Egi glamours etc. You seem to think that just because he'll be dogged in the future regarding it means he won't do it? He didn't get his position because he was afraid of saying no. If he does a new male only race, he will have his own justification for doing so, and that will be what matters in the end. He's not afraid to stand to his convictions and decisions, even in the face of blowback. Especially over something as minimally damaging to the game as a genderlocked race would be.

he was "prescreened" as well, after all.

Proof? Because that looked like a straight up, just walk up and ask your question type of Q&A. Show me people screening them and turning away people. There's not much of a way to screen people in real time, especially when they can lie about what they're going to ask.

[Rokke]

Im going to ignore the beast tribe comments because I don’t want to blow out my back from that reach.

We're about to get at least female Viera playable, who are severely seclusive and not seen anywhere else in the world until they're going to be everywhere come 5.0, including the 2.0 story. We also haven't even been to, or see half of the world of Hydalaen, there's a whole lot out there we have no clue about until SE puts it into their game.

Indeed, they were very secretive and not seen anywhere until patch 4.5, when we got a preview of what was to come with Fran in the same vein that Yugiri was a preview of what was to come.

Except for all intents and purposes, they did. Their inclusion in Heavensward as a playable race offered virtually nothing new to the game's experiencable story. No story acknowledged them, even when you encounter the few other Au Ra that were present in Heavensward (Sidurgu and Mide, for example.) They don't go majorly out of their way. There was no precedence before, and Yugiri talked almost nothing about her race, only that she had a funny tail and ears/horns.

Except they didn’t. Again, We knew she was something else. We knew where she came from. We knew she and her people were on the run. We knew they opposed Garlemald. That is not existing in a void. That is not completely 100% in the dark. She did not exist before the scene of her stepping off the boat, I will give you that. But she did exist before Au Ra were revealed. There are no “But!”s: She existed before the reveal.

A new race absolutely does not need to have any kind of build up whatsoever. There's no magical rule set forth by word of god that this has to happen. The most negative impact of just dropping a race without build up is some minor lore inconsisties and that's it.

And yet they went out of their way to introduce Viera- a tshirt, a raid, a nod in the lore book. Were they secretive or more vocal about both races I would be more inclined to believe 2 races. But to purposely whip up the fans at the start of SBR’s media circuit only to pull the rug out from under them? That is hard to wrap my head around.

It's very rare they take full on live Q&A, with people lining up. Almost every one of their Q&A has been collecting questions before hand and picking which to answer. But of course he's going to be asked about them inevitably. And he is constantly asked about plenty of things consistently, like Egi glamours etc. You seem to think that just because he'll be dogged in the future regarding it means he won't do it? He didn't get his position because he was afraid of saying no. If he does a new male only race, he will have his own justification for doing so, and that will be what matters in the end. He's not afraid to stand to his convictions and decisions, even in the face of blowback. Especially over something as minimally damaging to the game as a genderlocked race would be.


Proof? Because that looked like a straight up, just walk up and ask your question type of Q&A. Show me people screening them and turning away people

Redshirt guy posts on reddit, he is user/Dontinquire. He lied to the guy who was handling the mic: “I told the screener I was going to ask about their motivation for making the game and how the idea came about.” [1] [2] [3]

There's not much of a way to screen people in real time, especially when they can lie about what they're going to ask.

Thats wholly the point I was making. The norm at western events = live events where you either raise your hand and a person with a mic approaches you and screens you question before handing you the mic or you line up, a person with a mic screens your question, and then hands you the mic. Thats how the original bunny outfit got through. Thats how someone asked for peaches. Thats how someone spoke about his account being frozen because of mogstation issues with his bank. At NA’s fanfest there wasn’t anything stopping me from saying “I want to request a hot air balloon mount” to the screener and asking for a butt slider if they passed me a direct line to Yoshi.

[Gwenorai]

Snip

I agree with the point regarding rank and rule. So yes Yoshida can overrule. But that does bring up another question; he's very high up, and he represents Square. Regarding something that is as touchy as gender locking a race in our times. He reverted it once and was met with universal praise. While bringing it back, that's something that isn't going to meet with approval but seen as a backwards view. Yes, he'll be sticking to his guns - but in the end, it's going to hurt his image and squares. Because yet again, it's a backward view and people will glom on that. All it takes is folks to broadcast, Twitter, Reddit, Twitch etc.

Now that backlash could be big or small, but the backlash is backlash. We only see a small amount of it regarding BLU, I've seen so much more in discords, twitter, Reddit and other social media outlets. TLDR; the forums are just a small part of it. People are screaming all over the place regarding BLU, and I imagine they will listen, they have to since the class is in such a sorry state.

I think the backlash would be considerable regarding male Viera.

• - When people wanted Viera, I imagine they assumed that the male would be included because they removed the gender lock. No one thought they'd bring it back after what happened with the original gender locks.
• - Concept art showed both male and female; meaning the idea of the males wasn't entirely off the table. Along with the comment that they wouldn't show just the females.
• - Creating lore that would have the men confined in one specific area; who are aggressive to outsiders and then have us go to that area. In regards to the story; this would give a fantastic introduction. If however, they're going to use that lore to 'destroy' one part of a race's gender. That speaks of lazy writing, complete avoidance and a way to write them off in its entirety rather than expanding and adding to the lore.
• - While it's acceptable in Eastern MMOs; it isn't so much in Western MMOs, and that's where the money will haemorrhage. Yes, this is an Eastern MMO; but it has a huge western influence. Western MMOs do not have gender locks - why? Demographic, political correctness, etc. What do I mean by this? Eastern MMOs tend to go for sex appeal; the females are attractive and hot, or cute, petite, the men are rugged and strong. It's old backwards thinking. To me at least. Times have changed. More women playing, more people wanting to stray from the norm. Take me for example; I'm a female who wants to play as a male character. This isn't even including the LBGT+ community. Or just a man who wants to play as a Viera that is his own sex.
• - Business; in the end, this is all a business. Money matters. A new race will come, that's for certain. We have Viera, and that's a lot of money in Fantasias and the likes. A lot of money. Male Viera done 'correctly' close to the female but not straying too much; more money. A race that hasn't been shown or previewed or hinted at seems like more of a gamble in regards to that income.

In the end, gender locking will always be something that takes away from the freedom of the player who is affected by it. It stings even more in an RPG - and even more so in an MMORPG as there is no hiding from the choice they made. And while we can take the lumps and deal with it - there is no reason why those who were slighted should stay silent about it.

Honestly, I can't even imagine how irritated I'm going to be if there is no male Viera, and I'm surrounded by my friends who are happily playing their Female Viera - all the while seeing 'Bara lions' and thinking, 'this is what I got instead of my male Viera.' There is no hiding from that disappointment.

[xbahax92]

• - When people wanted Viera, I imagine they assumed that the male would be included because they removed the gender lock. No one thought they'd bring it back after what happened with the original gender locks.
• - Concept art showed both male and female; meaning the idea of the males wasn't entirely off the table. Along with the comment that they wouldn't show just the females.

Agreed. When I wrote in the Show your Support for Viera thread - I didnt really care much about female Viera. I wanted the whole race to be added, female AND male. They showed us Male Viera concepts, people started imagining how they would look like ingame, thats how the Viera thread started blooming, reached 234 pages since 2016....

This addition does not only influence Final Fantasy XIV fans right now, but also players who enjoyed other Ivalice games, people who were talking about male Viera years before in other forums and chats, people that created male Viera fanmade art...

Even if the backlash stays small, the disappointment will be HUGE and not only in FFXIV, but world wide. Right now they're trying to spread the word of male Viera's. Something that hasnt been seen in any other game. They're most likely playing with fire, if they are going to say "Sorry, no male Viera" at Tokyo FanFest.

[Shippuu]

Im going to ignore the beast tribe comments because I don’t want to blow out my back from that reach.

Lol ok.


I'll wait for you to provide a rule that states a new playable race must be teased before it's implemented.

And yet they went out of their way to introduce Viera- a tshirt, a raid, a nod in the lore book. Were they secretive or more vocal about both races I would be more inclined to believe 2 races.

Hmm, couldn't possibly be a common tactic used in all kinds of things called misdirection? Everyone's looking one way to then surprise with a reveal elsewhere. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

But to purposely whip up the fans at the start of SBR’s media circuit only to pull the rug out from under them? That is hard to wrap my head around.

For one, you act like they're purposely whipping up the fans, when they're more likely just trying to not spoil a surprise. Two, you act like this fanbase doesn't get whipped up over everything anyways. And three, they did exactly that with Blue Mage, having the CEO come out dressed as one, made a big dramatic show of it, to only "pull the rug out from under them" with it being a limited job. Of which they didn't even go into detail until the next day. They could absolutely do exactly the same thing with a new race.

Thats wholly the point I was making. The norm at western events = live events where you either raise your hand and a person with a mic approaches you and screens you question before handing you the mic or you line up, a person with a mic screens your question, and then hands you the mic. Thats how the original bunny outfit got through. Thats how someone asked for peaches. Thats how someone spoke about his account being frozen because of mogstation issues with his bank. At NA’s fanfest there wasn’t anything stopping me from saying “I want to request a hot air balloon mount” to the screener and asking for a butt slider if they passed me a direct line to Yoshi.

Those types of Q&A are exceedingly rare for this game, one to two a year if that and often don't last more than an hour and given translation has to happen very few overall questions get asked. The overwhelming majority of player Q&A is done via collecting questions beforehand. And even then, like I said before that you didn't address, in what reality is people asking about it going to not make him make that kind of decision in the first place? He's absolutely never been afraid to make decisions in this game that people wouldn't like and continue to ask about.

People asking about DPS meters in game time and time again haven't made them really materialize in the game. People asking for add-on support hasn't made it happen. He's far from the type of person that would just crumple under the slightest bit of pressure from the playerbase.