Waved or Reduced MP cost for Magic combo's

[Jinko]

theyre shouldnt be a trade off in reduction of damage because they arent damage dealers. it should be assumed and the trade of should have been in some other aspect.

What THM aren't damage dealers, ????

My mention of CNJ was an example that standing still is not needed.

Unfortuantely I disagree then.

Explain why ?

[Zigirus_Essan]

Explain why ?

Allow me to explain with some parse data from my Ifrit fights tonight.

First off, some explanations. You cannot combo magic if the magic is resisted, or partially resisted. It has to be a 100% success for it to count as a combo. Also, much like XI, getting to the cap hit rate with magic should be the first goal for most endgame content. Even if spells do less damage overall, you're doing more damage point for point if you go un-resisted as much as possible. Once that cap is reached, then you can push it forward for more damage per spell. So it stands to reason that from a MP efficiency and combo perspective, going unresisted is a good thing.

My THM gear is based around as much magic accuracy as possible while still maintaining as much magic damage that I can hold on to. My Magic attack sits currently at around 455, and my Magic accuracy at 466 with food. There are gear options I'm going to explore to make both sides of this ratio greater. I can't give a spell success rate since my friends parser didn't include that, but even just by eye balling it I could tell I was getting resisted a lot less. (Magic evasion down from our CNJ's Stone helped as well).

In our fight, we stall as long as possible at the start to break a horn so that later on we don't have to deal with a super harsh regen. Since the mages can't break horns, they all assist curing the tank until the melee's can break it. For this reason we didn't start the parser till immediately after the horns were broken and everyone began to do full damage. Most of the results will include 3 people. Myself, and 2 others that were constantly at the top of the damage list. The classes will vary a bit for different test samples aside from mine which is THM the whole night.

During the fights I DID have 1 or 2 periods in which I had to go from almost no MP to Full. (Usually right before Spikes popped and right after). I solo'd my spike within 20-30 seconds every time. My THM damage is always listed as the first. With Player 1 and Player 2 being listed after respectively.

The Results were as follows:


8700, 6500 LNC with Ifrits Harpoon, 5500 ARC with ifrits bow. Parse ended at a swift whipe of our tank.

8000, 5400 LNC with Ifrits Harpoon,5000 ARC ifrits bow. Also ended when our tank fell (really weird eruptions)

13000, 12000 LNC ifrits Harpoon, 11000 LNC no Ifrits harpoon All members had significant periods of dead time which is my beliefe as to why the range is so narrow. Ifrit defeated.

12000THM, 8000 MRD Ifrits Axe, 7500 LNC no ifrits None of the top 3 DPS (me included) had any deaths. Ifrit Defeated. near perfect dodging on my part from eruptions and other damage sources.

14800 THM, 6800 ARC with ifrits bow, 9000 LNC no ifrits harpoon. ARC dc'd mid figh for about 30 seconds. that fight I almost never got resisted and I'm starting to master timing of combo's, when to use certain spells, and closing my windows of "no damage". Only had to rest from empty to full once in the fight. ifrit jumps maintained MP. Ifrit Defeated

13000, 7100 THM Ifrit's Cudgel (Magic attack bonus only build less than 410 Macc but 490+ Magic attack bonus), LNC no ifrit's harpoon 6700. Ifrit defeated. The other THM, to be fair, had just jumped onto it for the first time and was being a little conservative. Later we had a parse that ended up with him only about 3000 behind me but I forgot to copy down the data.

As you can see, THM when played right with the right equipment kinda towers over anything else even with huge MP costs and regen time. From an over time perspective THM isn't weak by any means, nor is it "suffering". I personally feel that this is also in large part due to the fact that Ifrit as a fight lends itself to THM in that, most of everything he does can be avoided with relative ease on the mages part and little movement is required, therefore allowing many windows for getting MP back in position.

But even in a setting not as favorable for THM where MP conservation is key and there are little opportunities to stand and rest for MP, I don't think their Damage would suffer so much that any other DD would replace them. I havn't done the moogle fight yet to get any of my own opinions from it, but I can't imagine you have 0 time to regen your MP.

And don't take my word or parse results for it. Do your own parses or research with LS members in many different situations and see how it works out for you as long as you're looking for a true, un-biased truth about it.

So to finally answer your question Directly Jinko. If you put in a stance for it. I don't see why you wouldn't just want to make THM that way permanently by mechanic. But in my opinion the numerical data proves that it isn't needed in order for THM to be an effective damage dealer.

At most, the only thing people can say to me for arguments sake about it is that "I just don't like standing around waiting for MP as a personal preference" in which case, You are entitled to think that. But in terms of balance, It works as intended and well. (and maybe in Ifrits case, over powered)

TL;DR I personally don't see how Less damage for half MP would be any more Beneficial than it is now. Running out of MP mid fight doesn't detract from THM's ability as a whole and ultimately leaves it up to the player to play it well and skillfully to maximize it's potential.

[Jinko]

So to finally answer your question Directly Jinko. If you put in a stance for it. I don't see why you wouldn't just want to make THM that way permanently by mechanic. But in my opinion the numerical data proves that it isn't needed in order for THM to be an effective damage dealer.

How much of the fight did you spend doing nothing because you ran out of mana ?
The reason for not making THM that way permentaly is being people still like to solo leves and having a decreased dmg output could end up with them taking too much damage before they can effectively kill something.

At most, the only thing people can say to me for arguments sake about it is that "I just don't like standing around waiting for MP as a personal preference" in which case, You are entitled to think that. But in terms of balance, It works as intended and well. (and maybe in Ifrits case, over powered)

This is why I suggested the stance, mainly the idea being you are active through the entire fight whilst still maintaining the same damage in theory.

TL;DR I personally don't see how Less damage for half MP would be any more Beneficial than it is now. Running out of MP mid fight doesn't detract from THM's ability as a whole and ultimately leaves it up to the player to play it well and skillfully to maximize it's potential.

It's not supposed to be benefical, expect that you are actually doing something throughout the whole fight instead of burning through your whole mana pool in minutes and standing there doing nothing.

You can't give THM more mana and not take away elsewhere otherwise they will become ridiculously overpowered. (which in effect is what Firon is suggesting, sorry Fir :P)

[Zigirus_Essan]

How much of the fight did you spend doing nothing because you ran out of mana ?

If you re-read, I said it. "During the fights I DID have 1 or 2 periods in which I had to go from almost no MP to Full. "
This process takes roughly 1 minute tops. so all in all, 2 minutes + whatever time spent evading Eruption.

The rest of what you said I'll respond with this:

I think you misunderstand my point. I don't want THM to change at all. I don't want it's Damage and MP cost lowered equally, I don't want a stance that does it. I don't want MP cost's waived or halved during a combo.

I don't think there will be any fight that will constantly require you to move around 100% of the time without any chance of regaining MP.

You make it sound like once your MP is gone, that's it, game over. You're empty and useless for the rest of the fight.
Admitting that I fully rested twice, while periods of resting in between casting, yeah, I was standing around a bit waiting on MP, but lo and behold, the damage was still significant and in gobs loads more than what anyone else in that fight could put out.

Talking with a friend, the moogle fight isn't even about avoidance as much as it is about endurance and killing moogles in the right order. So as a THM, I don't even have to move if I place myself correctly the whole fight.

Present me a situation in which you are unable for any amount of time able to remain stationary to get MP back, and I'll think about the idea of Halving MP cost and Damage as a stance to be more than just personal play style preference.