Should they remove positionals at this point?

[Kallera]

You wot? Its more like these jobs are really easy to squeeze out DPS out of and are safe. Unlike melee who will have to dodge mechanics most of the time which sacrifices uptime.

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

[AxlStream]

Yes...and positionals only makes this harder.

Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

[Kaonis]

Oh please. It's easy as long as you pay attention. Positionals are the only way to currently distinguish high tier DPS players.

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS. Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

[Nora_of_Mira]

Positionals are just one way that doesn't mesh well with most of the fight designs and depending on the fight you can miss out on the positional damage at no fault of your own.

IMO, that's why I think they reduced the penalty for missing your positional and why they reduced the CD for True North (LONG OVERDUE BTW). As for "it doesnt mesh well", I mean, thats really fight dependent but no fight so far has felt unfair in positionals. Even in o11s, you have time to hit positionals during starboard/larboard. I find o12s extremely punishing bc so many mechanics box you into these immovable pockets of safety....but I guess that's why its the toughest fight of the raid?

[mosaicex]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

Yes, uptime AND optimal rotation have always been the biggest factor in doing decent DPS.
YET
YET people in this thread act like missing few positionals during mechanic wombo combo and such will somehow murder their DPS. I mean, if it was pre-2.4/3.0 era DRG like I've mentioned earlier then they would have a point, but that's not the case anymore.
I suspect some of them had been called out for poor performance (due to aforementioned factors) but decided to blame it all on positionals.

There is a ton of far more interesting ways for a DPS to squeeze out their DPS.

Name some, I've yet to see anyone bringing up anything noteworthy in this thread to compensate for removal of positionals.
It's always 'UHH I don't like positionals, dev should just delete it!' 'Positionals aren't hard at all! I JUST have 'difficulty' doing them during certain part of the fight.', and my favorite 'There are better ways! (proceed to not name any)'

If they don't like positionals then there are 5 other jobs for them to move to (actually casters have to deal with position too, but positioning instead of positional. Range physical DPS can move freely but often have to deal with more mechanics due to it).
Every jobs in this game have upsides and downsides, but no, people want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Kaonis]

Yes, uptime AND optimal rotation have always been the biggest factor in doing decent DPS.
YET
YET people in this thread act like missing few positionals during mechanic wombo combo and such will somehow murder their DPS. I mean, if it was pre-2.4/3.0 era DRG like I've mentioned earlier then they would have a point, but that's not the case anymore.
I suspect some of them had been called out for poor performance (due to aforementioned factors) but decided to blame it all on positionals.


Name some, I've yet to see anyone bringing up anything noteworthy in this thread to compensate for removal of positionals.
It's always 'UHH I don't like positionals, dev should just delete it!' 'Positionals aren't hard at all! I JUST have 'difficulty' doing them during certain part of the fight.', and my favorite 'There are better ways! (proceed to not name any)'

If they don't like positionals then there are 5 other jobs for them to move to (actually casters have to deal with position too, but positioning instead of positional. Range physical DPS can move freely but often have to deal with more mechanics due to it).
Every jobs in this game have upsides and downsides, but no, people want to have their cake and eat it too.

I literally named some. You even quoted what I named. This is the worst attempt at a strawman that I've ever seen.

The bottom line is positionals are a relic from the 1.X days when mobs were more stationary. And as they are in fights now they just cause you to have a loss of performance at no fault of you own, which is not fun and not a reflection as your skill as a player. If I clip my oGCD into my GCD that is on me. If I move into/out of an AoE or move too late/early for a mechanic to maximize uptime, that's on me. The mob spinning around on its own or mechanics that prevent you from being able to do positionals is not the fault of the player, and its frustrating.

And again, other games have succeeded and had fun melee jobs without positional gimmicks slapped onto all of them.

[mosaicex]

I literally named some.

You named what's ALREADY IN THE GAME, something positionals are supposed to work in conjunction with. I am asking for a replacement in lieu of positional removal.

The bottom line is positionals are a relic from the 1.X days when mobs were more stationary. And as they are in fights now they just cause you to have a loss of performance at no fault of you own, which is not fun and not a reflection as your skill as a player.

Guess what, genius. The current bosses from ARR through SB are pretty damn stationary too, EX trials, Savage fights, 24 man bosses, most of them anyway.
This whole bosses movement kills my DPS and my puppies are way, WAY overblown.
Or did you mean mobs as in trash dungeon/overworld mobs that die in like 10 seconds?

The mob spinning around on its own or mechanics that prevent you from being able to do positionals is not the fault of the player, and its frustrating.

Again, stop pretending this is somehow an extremely common occurrence. It isn't, not in any fights where DPS matters anyway.

And again, other games have succeeded and had fun melee jobs without positional gimmicks slapped onto all of them.

Feel free to go enjoy them. God forbid XIV being its own thing for once.

[Kaonis]

You named what's ALREADY IN THE GAME, something positionals are supposed to work in conjunction with. I am asking for a replacement in lieu of positional removal.

Melee already have the things I mentioned plus their job specific quirks. I fail to see how taking away something like positionals will be anything more then convenience and allow the player to focus on the more skill based systems in place rather then one that can be interrupted because of fight design, and again loss of DPS at no fault of the player.

Also, positionals don't work in conjunction with those aforementioned systems. They are their own thing. Using a CD at a mobs flank or a mobs rear has no bearing on a CD or oGCD. So again, I fail to see how those are "working in conjunction with positionals".

Guess what, genius. The current bosses from ARR through SB are pretty damn stationary too, EX trials, Savage fights, 24 man bosses, most of them anyway.

They are stationary except when they're not. Got it. Doesn't change the fact there are fights where the design of the fight makes positionals impossible to pull off for some amount of time and again lowering the player performance at no fault of the player.

This whole bosses movement kills my DPS and my puppies are way, WAY overblown.

Hyperbole and strawman. There's nothing here that resembles an argument.

Feel free to go enjoy them. God forbid XIV being its own thing for once.

Ignoring other games and trying to develop in a vacuum is, in part, what caused 1.0 to flop in the first place. The game already has a ton of things that make it its own. Removing one bad design decision won't kill that.

Besides, the devs are clearly edging away from positionals. We'll probably see it almost entirely removed if not completely removed come 7.0.

[Fyce]

Feel free to go enjoy them. God forbid XIV being its own thing for once.

"Its own thing"... that gets toned down almost every patch where melee DPS get adjustments.
If it was such an objectively good gameplay mechanic, SE wouldn't rebalance it all the time to minimize its impact so much.

[Vaer]

That is factual wrong though. Melee DPS have uptime to consider (trying to minimize GCD loss when having to move/get away for AoEs or mechanics), oGCD weaving so as to not clip GCDs, planning out CD usage to line up with your rotation/fight mechanics/raid buffs to maximize DPS.

There are mechanics that force casters to move, and they lose 100+ potency for every GCD missed (gets pretty bad on BLM which is why they get more movement utility, smn might be the only exception but they have more stuff to keep track off), while melee lose 20-60 per GCD on a positional loss if they can still hit the boss. Creative use of utility (just like True North for melees, for casters Swiftcast, Manipulation, Dual/Triplecast etc) to keep their rotation going when they have to move.

Seiryu is mentioned but the in/out and left/right (requires slidecasting/timed casts to keep rotation going without getting smashed) is annoying for casters, too - while melee might miss out on one of two positionals with no True North but can still hit it. Actually the warp to the furthest person is supposed to punish casters as well. In first is supposed to benefit melee, and Out first is supposed to benefit casters. Coursing River pretty much ruins everyone unless a caster has utility up, and you can arms' or surecast slappy hands knockback for one or two extra GCDs.

But you say, hey bards and machinists can keep moving and shoot: currently they take a damage loss and are reliant on other jobs for their damage ceiling (dragoon, scholar really helps brd), no knockback immunities and harder time managing enmity.

The thing I will agree with is relying on the tank to not spin the boss and position properly is kinda meh but other dps jobs have their own drawbacks to it as well.

Usually if there is a lot of movement the DPS check is set very low (SeiryuEX has a light one) anyway to make up for it.