Should they remove positionals at this point?

[zeth07]

I think some people in this thread missed the point for thinking that not wanting them is about them being "too complicated" to do, especially the person who posted the training dummy and explaining how they work.

Doing the positionals themselves are easy, especially on a training dummy, you barely move a cm and suddenly you did your positional, then a few seconds later move again and there's the other one. This is not hard or complicated, and I don't think anyone would argue that to begin with.

It is when you have to do this when actual mechanics are happening that seem to have been purposefully designed against doing positionals. You either forgo uptime/actions to maintain the positional which is bad, or maintain uptime and forgo the positional which is also bad.

Which just brings me back to the things I already discussed. That is bad design, one way or the other, pick your poison. Either it is bad mechanics design or bad job skillset design. They are designing fights going into it saying it is ok to play suboptimally because you have no choice, you just make do with what you get.

If the positionals did not exist then all the fights that are mechanic heavy with a lot of built in movement would not suddenly become less complicated it would just mean the actions can function to their full potential.

Missing out on 40 potency because the boss decided to turn/teleport in the middle of my combo is out of my control, especially if this occurs more often than True North can cover. That isn't some sudden jump in a skill gap, it is the difference between taking a step to the left or right, and yet the bosses tend to just ignore that entirely either due to hitbox sizes/turning completely or abruptness of movement.

We already have decent fights that don't require positionals so the proof is already there, I don't think anyone would say Shinryu EX was a boring fight or not complicated enough, ignoring the add phase since they have it.

Lastly I will just say between ARR/HW to SB I believe there has been a sharp increase in mechanics + movement either as a player/party or the bosses themselves compared to the old ones. The differences between the ARR extremes and the SB extremes seem like night and day for example. This in general is fine, I'm not complaining about that per se, in fact they've been great but something has to give if the fights themselves are going to be more complicated and that's part of why I would suggest the positionals be removed.

[mosaicex]

....

So what you're saying is doing positional is easy except when it isn't easy, in which case it becomes difficult. Nice revelation going on there.

Also why are you people acting like missing a few positionals will dumpster your DPS? This hasn't been the case since 2.4, since then they have been continuously easing the penalty of missing positionals from "rotation crasher" to just "cool if you do it, fine if you don't (as long as you don't intentionally miss all of it)"

This isn't 2.0-2.3 DRG era anymore, where missing a positional outright denied you the damage buff or won't let you progress further into your combo, or in 3.1 where missing positional with Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust dumpster'd your whole potency per gcd to below the point where not doing them gave higher gain.

Of course except for NIN, but such is the cost of powerful debuff like Trick Attack, and even then unless the boss is spinning like spinning top there's no excuse not to wait a few seconds to land it safely.
This is also assuming you're playing by ears and not already have all CDs planned out like you should be.

Sure some fight(s) are a bit tougher on landing positionals eg. Suzaku EX (especially if tank isn't so good at minimizing the movement) but none of the Savage fights through 3 whole SB-tier have this particular problem.

"BUT SHINRYU EX"
This is not really relevant. Shinryu EX is not Suzaku EX, much like how Neo Exdeath isn't God Kefka or Final Omega. If fights weren't designed with postionals in mind then of course they will have to compensate in some other ways.
It's all about the fights presentation first, mechanics second, unless you're somehow suggesting it's the other way around ("Gee, I don't wat Shinryu EX to have positional so I guess I will present him like this")

Sometimes you just have to accept that you will miss a few of them and move on.

[Brightamethyst]

Part of why I don't think dropping positionals as a mechanic would hurt anything is because we already watched something similar play out with another love it or hate it skill based mechanic. Cleric Stance.

I loved Cleric Stance. I thought it was a fun and interesting thing and was proud of my stance dancing skill, and was sad in pre-SB when I heard it was going away. Wouldn't healing be super boring without it? As it turns out, no. Not at all. As much as I liked the play style, the reality is that it's been a year and a half now and I honestly haven't missed the stance dance at all. Looking back and comparing I think the game is better off without Cleric Stance and I think the same would probably be true if they dropped (or downplayed) positionals.

[Sieben79]

I think some people in this thread missed the point for thinking that not wanting them is about them being "too complicated" to do, especially the person who posted the training dummy and explaining how they work.

Doing the positionals themselves are easy, especially on a training dummy, you barely move a cm and suddenly you did your positional, then a few seconds later move again and there's the other one. This is not hard or complicated, and I don't think anyone would argue that to begin with.

As a Blackmage the rotation on a training dummy is easy. At SSS-dummy I do 8,5k on Chaos (O9S). In the real fight my highest was 7,2k, building up from 4,6K at my first kill.
And Chaos is a really slow fight.

So there comes Seiryu, quick mechanics, much random stuff. First kill 4,9k and my last kill 6,1k (have 22 kills and much more training sessions).

Its all about training and learning the fights. Had a Monk in my team who had done 6,2k. So it seems, he had no problems doing the positionals.

Train and get better, like with every Job.

[Dzian]

If you don't raid savage then you can just ignore positionals anyway. It's not a requirement to get through other content easily. Just play for fun and not worry about min/max. But those who enjoy the challenge shouldn't have it dumbed down to cater to the more casual players.

i find this amusing because it generally is a requirement to get through everything easily. the just play for fun and dont worry about min max really doesnt fly.
i mean its like recent threads about running abania in i270 gear. and so many people flip out about it.. but hey don't worry about min/max just play for fun...
or again players who dont bother melding get grief because the game can throw so much materia at you for free why arent you melding it... hey don't worry about min/max yourgear just play for fun...

it's funny how the game has dumbed down simplified and scrapped so many battle elements that were actually fun and interesting but people said they were pointless and added an element of complexity. but then people say positionals which are dull and boring must stay because they add complexity or something. they really don't add anything to the battle system.

if you want to add some complexity bring back crowd control mechanics. or incapacitations or battle regimens or unscripted unpredictable encounters or any number of things infinitely more fun than positionals

I found it annoying on Ninja, but I'm quite happy with positionals on Sam.

You don't crash your dps by missing them. Infact, if you just stand in one spot, you'll generally hit half of them by default. But aiming to hit as many as you can rewards you with that little bit more damage and adds a skillcap.

You can just about beat SSS o12s ignoring positionals as Sam. It's just at the right point to look at as a bonus for hitting, rather than a loss for missing. Maybe other classes need to aim for this mark.

same can be said for ninja generally. i mean if you stayed in one spott he entire fight (rear) the only positional you would ever miss is armor crush for huton.

[Nyvara]

It never really made sense to me why monks have positionals in the first place. Dragoons and Ninjas sure. One fights dragons the other is a sneaky stabby type. But monks always struck me as a fighter that takes advantage of all positions.

[Nora_of_Mira]

The new ex trial is a huge example of ranged privilege in my opinion, that mofo spins like crazy, teleports back and forth. It drives me nuts on Monk.

I think the problem is less about Positionals and more so about SE catering to range with the occasional simple mechanic for us to do.

It's not that bad, honestly, it just takes some practice and experimenting and full usage of your kit keep up with uptime and positionals. It's not likely the difference between a clear and a wipe, but it is a difference of like 500-700 dps (in my case at least). As DRG I learned exactly how far i had to be to not get knocked into water while keeping uptime, exactly when to spineshatter dive when the boss "randomly" jumps (its not random i found), when to elusive jump after the snake push (its the perfect distance every time). Basically had to True North on cd but i typically saved it for the snake push or when Big Chungus was about to slam his fists and the tank had the boss positioned badly.

All in all, a little experimentation went a long way for me and the same habits carried over for SAM.

Also, I find the "in or out" mechanic balances out the ranged vs melee privilege.

edit: I can likely remember other tips throughout my day. like:
- the kiji - something (checkerboard pattern AOE). his direct front and back is always safe on the first AoE and then i move to his flank, which is always safe.
- the "stack" aoe is actually just a "get in line" aoe and you can be on the boss away from the party and be perfectly fine. I see so many people stacked for this just due to safety concerns.
- if you're comfortable dodging the mechanics, go ahead and EAT that Yin-and-Yang vuln stack! only do this if it wont cost you your life, but i found the raid damage is not high enough to put you in danger (AS LONG AS you dodge every mechanic while having the vuln).
- Big Chungus is a cheeky c*nt. dont let his fists scare you.

[Mansion]

Also, I find the "in or out" mechanic balances out the ranged vs melee privilege.

*interrupts cast and runs in the donut AOE then runs out as a RDM*
Oh you shit snake I hate you.

Yeah I agree. While different in practice, it can all be brought down to the same conclusion. DPS need to analyse each fight to work on their uptime.

[Bigmoose85]

To be honest I'd happily see them all scrapped. Its really not interesting. Especially when you can typically do them all with 1 step here and 1 step there..

If they scrapped them entirely I'd probably play and enjoy monk a hell of a lot more personally..

I agree, been around since ARR and these days i barely care about hitting them.

[Hamada]

To me a lot of fights are designed acting like positionals do not exist. So my take is stop desgining fights like that or change positionals stuff again, like limiting them to last move in a combo, with it only effecting one combo of a job.