getting kicked from end game pfs as soon as I join?

[Makeda]

If people don't learn how to take advice about their jobs, they won't improve on their rotation.

Yes but how often is advice actually given.

Back to my WoW analogy the guild that tossed me out of their raid just told me to get good, learn to play. Albeit politely, there was no advice in that.

So I left, and then I found tips on an unrelated discord chat the next day...

So I did get better... but it was not from any advice by the people who would have been making a claim that I need to listen to advice...

I rarely see the people saying you need to follow advice actually offering it. 15 years in MMOs and it’s been a rare moment.

I do get your sentiment, but I feel one shouldn’t make that statement without at the same time backing it up with advice or an offer to help.

An aside on why my secobd guild didn’t have my first guild’s logs to check me on...

First guild was meticulous on logging and after every raid all the officers would move to a discord and review everyone. Then they would boot 3 people from the top raid down to the bottom one I was in, promote 3 from bottom, and show poor performers the door, giving new people their spots. So I got in there because someone else had been thrown out... I didn’t like that but it was what it was.

Hiwever they put their logs on the warcraft logs site using a personal account of one of the officers, without using the guild name. So I can still find those logs if I go look as I had that name. But if I searched for the guild I would see no records...

Second new guild actually also used an officer’s account, but had previously used the guild. So the log site looked like they’d stopped raiding 2 xPacs ago, but the wow version of lodestone showed current rapid progress without logs.

Second set of guys though, didn’t do the whole weekly boot/promote thing, and while they did look people’s logs up, they didn’t ask me if I had logs somewhere not found under my name.

(I don’t know how fflogs works, but on warcraftlogs you won’t find logs unless those logs where published from an account or posted under a guild name. If I post my log of you and me in a raid, and Jane searches for me she will see you, but if she searches for you she won’t find you unless your guild or you posted it).

So yeah... maybe the second guild would have still taken me if they’d found my older rock bottom logs... I don’t know... I really made the example here to stage my final question...

How hard is it for a player that has finally improved to be accepted if their bad past performance is still up there?

People here so far in this thread seem to think the FFXIV community won’t hold it against a person too much.

And if that’s really true, I’d not be too against logs...

[whiskeybravo]

How hard is it for a player that has finally improved to be accepted if their bad past performance is still up there?

It's all very circumstantial. What are you looking to get accepted in to? Something like the first guild in your example, or the second? An average player looking for an average group shouldn't really have much issue, and vice versa. Like, my group may be a bit above average, but not enough to be able to easily recruit a consistently orange player. Of course there are outliers on both sides, like a high-end group giving an average person a chance or a high-end player wanting to take a step back to be in a more casual group. But like someone else pointed out, most players want to raid with people are at least equally skilled as they are. Once you are at this point it's not so much a question of acceptance in general, but rather your ability to target a specific group you want to be a part of and have success.

[Melichoir]

Yes but how often is advice actually given.

I actually dont think this is true. Ive seen advise given quite often. Its just not often taken in reality. You have to consider this from a basic standpoint: If youre in a group with someone, it is assumed broadly that you both share the same goal. You know, complete some content. If you witness someone in your group not performing well, you can do 1 of two things broadly: Not say anything, or try say something in an attempt to address an issue you see. Pragmatically so you have the best chance at success, its better to offer up something that actually corrects the issue. While there are people who do use the "God you suck, Git Gud scrub" mentality, most players dont go this route out the door. Simply because saying that is almost guaranteed to piss the other person off, you arent addressing any real issue that they can work with, and its more likely to ultimately shaft your group dynamics resulting in you failing to get something done. So its better to say some piece of advice.

The trouble I see more frequently is how that advice is taken. People dont like to consider themselves bad at things, or that theyre doing things wrong. They usually like to think "Hey, Im good at this. Screw this guy." Its a bias people typically have for themselves. Human nature and all. So advice is often seen as criticism, from my experiences. Which sours people, and then things go sideways.

Back to my WoW analogy the guild that tossed me out of their raid just told me to get good, learn to play. Albeit politely, there was no advice in that.

So I left, and then I found tips on an unrelated discord chat the next day...

So I did get better... but it was not from any advice by the people who would have been making a claim that I need to listen to advice...

To be frank, you had a bad WoW group. I do know there are players who are of the mindset of "Learn it yourself, youll be better for it." But I dont share that opinion. Being encouraged to ask questions, especially from people who know the subject matter, is more expedient than being told "Git Gud," and "Go look it up." It really comes across as stupid because if a person has knowledge on how you can improve, but is refusing to share it, their advice then becomes nothing more than criticism and sneering. And to be clear, I dont mean people who give you an overview of what youre doing wrong and then rpovide you with direction to delve deeper. Im specifically talking about people who say "You need to get better. Do X." but then when you ask them about it in depth, they tell you to go read a guide. If they know the material but arent willing to help you when you show interest in being better, thats more on them.