Please stop making Eureka

[Reynhart]

Releasing what is essential a Siege mode dungeon has a far different experience than anything the game currently offers.

At the core, it's still "killing trash mobs and bosses". That's exactly why I said context matters.

Saying the challenge log gives a different vibe is, again, subjective, and a bit silly

No, it's not...doing the challenge doesn't require the same setup as chaining 5+lvl monsters, that's a totally different organisation.

What content is there for the general audience; the overwhelming majority?

Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

Put the relic in Diadem, even with randomization akin to what Pyros has now, and I guarantee it doesn't die within the first week.

Well, judging from several threads about Eureka, "lots" of people seem to have given up on the relic because of Eureka. Adding the absurd RNG of Diadem would only make more people skip it (Me included). Back then, they even tried to put the strongest weapon of HW in it, and it did nothing...no, scratch that, it made people hate Diadem even more because it could potentially kill the fflogs competition.

I hardly think people will care about say... the i380 Armor sets they threw in there.

Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

Regardless, every single example you provided has no need for a tomestone solution because there either isn't an arduous grind behind it or it already has a solution to remedy said grind.

I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

Things about RNG

The weapon has absolutely no RNG for the Anemos part, and the RNG for light in Pagos is really not that punishing, especially now that it's been patched. Sure, the coffers are random, but, you seems to have more of an issue with the relic, so it's a different topic. Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

Everything has an alternative here... except Eureka.

Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

Both the Zodiac and Anima relics had an alternative method of progression

The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

Since we already know Pagos requires 500 tokens, 50 Mendacity—a third of what you suggested—necessitates 25,000 tomes, which roughly puts it in line with the Umbrite step.

Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

[Nariel]

snip

You know, people want an alternative to Eureka because its crap, its not more complicated than this, whatever how previous relics worked.

Put a tomestone price on every step of SB relic and people that already don't do Eureka will more likely do the tomestone way, people that hate Eureka but bother with it for some of its reward and fear of the future will stop doing it and choose the tomestone path and the very niche people that enjoy themselve in this graveyard will continue to enjoy it with the other part of the player base who just don't care about fun and just want to do it faster (if its the most efficient, less likely cause they sure love to speedrun dungeon).

As simple as that.

Some people will still complain, cause it will remain crap but its more about how they wanted it to be good or for the others reward people want but can't put themselve to suffer it.

The armor is a special case, it was annouced as a relic armor so they get the same treatment as relic weapon in some people hearts.

Most people don't want Eureka to disapear, they more likely don't want it to absorb that much ressources and don't have to do it for their beloved reward. People don't like that much PvP lock reward too they don't ask its death because its a niche feature people don't boher with or barely play to get the reward far more faster than in Eureka, put the relic in it and hell will fall on its head too.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

This does not keep people subbed over a seven month period. There's a reason why people complain they have little to do. Not to mention, it's incredibly easy to cap each week, thus you finish all this content within 2-3 days even at a slow pace.

Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

No. This is yet another Strawman. What I said is if you put any other gear set in Eureka, people wouldn't care about it. They only cared about the Armor because it was the unique AF3 sets. When we found out they moved away from them and simply released generic sets, people were pretty much laughing. I guarantee very few people care about the Pyros armor sets now.

I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

This was in response to comments about other activities. Context is important. And calling Pagos not an tedious grind is amusing.

Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

Yes, but I can get them at my leisure. And should I elect to wait, they become far easier much faster than Eureka. Even now, Tsukiyomi falls over due to ilvl yet she's had no nerfs of any kind whatsoever. Despite being nerfed five times now Pagos remains a slog. And unlike the Primals, there are no mechanics or interactions you do for the most part. The primary focus is on endlessly killing trash mobs.

Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

To a point, yes. Everything you listed requires a brain. I would have far more interest in Eureka if NMs were the focus. Why? They have mechanics. I'm not just hitting target dummies that occasional proc. Now that doesn't mean trash mobs shouldn't exist or they can't be fun in and of themselves. But when 90% of what you do is killing brain dead trash... it's not exactly compelling gameplay.

Primals, Savage and PvP also offer their rewards faster. The exception to this are Feast Season rewards, which are another controversial issue and Primal mounts. The latter is still easier to obtain and less of a grind, ironically.

The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

Tomestones grinds, by their very nature, are an alternative. You earn them through doing almost anything.

I didn't like the Umbrite step much either but if I didn't feel like spamming ARF, I could do Dun Scaith, Beast Tribes or Alexander. These are all options. Eureka does not have this. You have a single method of progression. You have to kill trash mobs in Pagos for light. You have to kill NMs in Pagos for Crystals. There is no away around this. A major complaint has revolved around Pagos enforcing chaining mobs when people preferred the NM train—something they brought back, especially in Pyros. Which tells you right there the devs had to buckle on their own design because people hated it.

Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

Depends on how it were balanced. If light were obtained simultaneously, thus keeping it in line with Pagos, it limits that grind. Leveling in Pagos would still be an issue, though they remedied that already come Pyros by making it a breeze.

My point is you fancy Eureka. Which is fine. The complaint people have isn't Eureka itself necessarily, but that the relic—a weapon previously obtainable through running casual content—was relocated to a niche activity. Despite not being perfect by any means, a lot of people preferred the Anima relic and aren't happy they've now being forced into Eureka—content they may not like—when that wasn't the case for two iterations.

[Reynhart]

This does not keep people subbed over a seven month period.

I guess it keeps enough people subbed since Stormblood have still enough players to keep the same trend from ARR and HW.

I guarantee very few people care about the Pyros armor sets now.

People are interested in new and cool skins. From what I've heard, the flaw or Pyros armor is that that caster/healer looks the same, as tank/DRG...

And calling Pagos not an tedious grind is amusing.

Hold on, please, how did you move from "arduous" to "tedious" ? They don't have the same meaning at all...Because calling farming hundreds of primal tokens or running the same 4 fights over and over for weeks not tedious is really a big stretch (Especially if you lose several lot rolls in the process ) .

Despite being nerfed five times now Pagos remains a slog.

It really depends on you definition of "a slog". Like I said, in three weeks I went from elvl25 to elvl35 and a Pagos weapon, by only playing 3 or 4 Pagos session a week, and after a 2 month break so that Pagos was not fresh new anymore. It's really not that long of a grind.

Tomestones grinds, by their very nature, are an alternative. You earn them through doing almost anything.

The feeling I have with tomestones (And I'm only talking for me) is that it negates the values of any content. Because you're not really doing the content, you're just running through something just to gain your tomes. So, in the end, every Leveling Roulette feels the same, every lvl50/60 Roulette feel the same, and every Expert Roulette feels the same...especially the latter when you're restriced to doing the same two dungeons to cap your tomes each week for three months.

A major complaint has revolved around Pagos enforcing chaining mobs when people preferred the NM train—something they brought back, especially in Pyros.

Problem is, you see lots of people preferring the train because they've been told its faster, which, depending on you elvl, can be a blatant lie. And you still see people in Pagos farming Frozen Crystal with the train and complaining that it takes too much time.

The complaint people have isn't Eureka itself necessarily, but that the relic—a weapon previously obtainable through running casual content—was relocated to a niche activity.

The thing is, you also had people complaining that Relics didn't have their own content and they were basically only here to keep older content alive. As soon as Wondrous Tails was released, my first thought was that the reason was to take that task so that the next relic might solve that complain. Maybe it's why I was pretty much expecting what happened there. And I still think that Anima weapon was only done by a very small part of the playerbase so they shifted a niche reward to a niche activity which purpose was to try new mechanics on the battle system.