Please stop making Eureka

[Bourne_Endeavor]

In the end, everything could be summed up as killing lots of trash mobs then a boss, be it a dungeon, a quest, FATEs, etc...But soloing or low-manning the challenge log does not give the same vibe or ask for the same requirement as chaining high level monsters on one spot in a full group with dedicated tanks and healers, or roaming around the whole map with the train.

Imagine if a new dungeon is created where instead or running around killing packs of trash and three bosses, you had to keep a position safe from approaching waves of trash and bosses. Or if you had to protect an NPC from waves of mobs and three bosses. Or, as I would really liked The Burn to be, an open zone where you would kill the three bosses and their trash in any order you want, until you open the last part for a final fourth boss. Would it really make you feel the same as the usual "straight line dungeon with three circles rooms" ?

You begin a consistent trend here, which is making comparisons that are not equal. Releasing what is essential a Siege mode dungeon has a far different experience than anything the game currently offers. In that context, the mobs come to you and you're forced to defend against possible waves or do other objectives. Eureka is not this nor does it remotely compare. No matter how you approach it, you simply kill hundreds of mobs endlessly. It does nothing different. Saying the challenge log gives a different vibe is, again, subjective, and a bit silly. It's literally "kill 30-60 of this elemental type". That isn't variety, it's simply masking the same activity behind something else. If you simply try to spawn a NM, you'll inevitably complete the challenge log without even noticing.

For me, it's sill too soon to judge. It's still very easy to end in a full instance for Anemos or for Pagos. I even have taken a full 2 month break just after the release of Pagos and had no issue doing my full Pagos weapon leisurely in a little more than two weeks. From what I've heard, Eureka scales with the number of players, with people reporting that lots of NM are easily soloable when the zone is near empty. Considering that every NM drops XP/Crystal/Light and that you don't need to kill Pazuzu or Louhi anymore, I think it's really doable. Of course, you won't be able to solo if lots of people are in the zone, but, you can simply join them then since chances are they are in a train.

In Anemos, yes. You can solo some NMs with a low enough instances. This isn't the case in Pagos. Regardless, the grind is so immense, you'll be there for ages. Will this be nerfed come 5.0? Yes. But previous relic steps didn't require a nerf bat for players to catch up. That is the complaint many people have. If you're starting the relic late, it's an increase grind right now and you either deal with it or wait until the expansion's conclusion to maybe have a sensible alternative. There is no way around that being poorly thought out.

Not really. If you have numbers as proof that only a small part of the playerbase actually did the previous relics, it would be useless to streamline the next relic for the whole playerbase, especially when you want to try something a little different. If past relics ended as a niche (No claim since I don't have numbers, but they do), making this one a niche for the new systems you want to experiment is not that far fetched.

Lots of "ifs." This assumes only a small portion of the players did relics. Lets put that aside though. If we assume Eureka and the relic were always intended for a niche audience—a Savage equivalent or thereabouts. What content is there for the general audience; the overwhelming majority? Unless you like virtually every activity this game offers, you'll be finished in under a month. Eureka can't be considered niche content because there just isn't enough for the general playerbase to do otherwise.

There is a big difference between Diadem and Eureka. Random rewards. In Diadem, you never knew what item you'd get and what stats and appearance it would have, especially since you could end with items you might not even use. In Eureka (until now, at least), you always knew exactly what the weapon/armor would be, even if the time it would take to obtain it varies, and you always make progress to that goal. The randomized stats for Pyros may change that a bit, depending on how harsh it is.

You missed my point. Put the relic in Diadem, even with randomization akin to what Pyros has now, and I guarantee it doesn't die within the first week. Put simply, the relic is what keeps Eureka somewhat populated. Any other weapon set and I suspect those population numbers dwindle even if said weapons were guaranteed; no random rewards. I hardly think people will care about say... the i380 Armor sets they threw in there.

No, I didn't "dodge" the question because I still think it's a silly question. Let's suppose that every item from any content is buyable with tomestones. You have two options : If it's buyable with capped tomestones, people would still do the dedicated content so that they can bypass the weekly restriction. If it's buyable with uncapped tomestones, yes, the content would be dead...but it's true for every content. If EX Primal weapons and mounts were buyable with uncapped tomestones, they would die after everyone get their first clear. If Savage gear, minions and mounts were buyable with tomestones, you'd only see the small fraction of the playerbase interesting in fflogs competition in there, so a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. If Ivalice gear was buyable with tomestones, people would only get their first clear too. People will mostly chose the path of least resistance (Unless personal gripe like I have with tomestones), and tome farming is the universal easiest way of obtaining things.

A silly "question" yet one you built a Strawman around. First and foremost, I said nothing about tomestones and used light grinding as an example. Regardless, every single example you provided has no need for a tomestone solution because there either isn't an arduous grind behind it or it already has a solution to remedy said grind. 10 EX Primal tokens guarantees you a weapon and the mount can be obtained with 99 should you elect not to grind further. The drop rate also increases significantly in subsequent patches. Savage has books to combat its RNG aspect, but also rewards the best gear currently obtainable. The minion/mount are guaranteed drops that simply require a re-clear to obtain. And even if you were unlucky enough to lose in every single pug clear you do, Savage eventually gets unlocked, making it possible to farm everything.

Everything has an alternative here... except Eureka. So this tomestone example falls apart before we even touch the Achilles' heel. Both the Zodaic and Anima relics had an alternative method of progression; multiple, in fact. You keep trying to pile on things like the challenge as some unique deviation when it literally revolves around the same premise—so much so you'll often complete it while spawning NMs because killing trash mobs is the only option in Eureka. Allowing people to tomestone or light farm outside Eureka is simply bringing back the previous options taken away.

As for your tomestone calculations. People have already pointed out they are absurd. Since we already know Pagos requires 500 tokens, 50 Mendacity—a third of what you suggested—necessitates 25,000 tomes, which roughly puts it in line with the Umbrite step. Now you have options! People who abhor tomestone grinds, like yourself, can happily farm NMs while people who prefer it or are indifferent can do dungeons, trials or whatever. This is the crux of almost every complaint: a lack of options. Eureka forces a specific style of gameplay onto people with no deviation. Change that and the complaints will die down.

[HiroesX81]

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

Why should they every try anything new and interesting ever again. Cant say " Please include this next time" "Please include a way for me to do this" No just flat out DELETE. Because "If i dont enjoy it NO ONE should'

This is the whole reason this entire forum has become ONE big JOKE to everyone else. Your upset, you hate it, it sucks thats ALL that matters to all of you.

I hope you enjoy yourselves next time if were back grinding 500 dungeons 1000000 tomes running dungeons from 1 to 70 with RNG drops JUST because you couldnt come up with anything remotely useful or constructive to say. SO Please by all means PLEASE enjoy! and may the never ever try anything remotely unique or intersting again because it is JUST UNACCEPTABLE to you.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

There has been more than one thread for each Eureka expansion that say exactly this: "How I would fix [eureka zone]." There have been numerous threads around the big topics: bringing back NM trains, upping quest xp, doing something to make the bunny fate worthwhile, level sync, & daily quests to name a few.

Minus a few quick fixes, most things were ignored or implemented at a minor level, and the things that would overwhelmingly answer a majority of our complaints - level sync and daily quests - were ignored. On top of that, a lot of people see absolutely no worth in any part of Eureka - for us, "fixing" it would be to remove it altogether/divorce the relic from it. And the latter would actually benefit the people who do enjoy Eureka, since it would leave them with their XI style battles and their XI minions and glamours.

So, yeah. We've tried giving suggestions. We've made whole threads based around those suggestions. Overall, most of them get ignored. I think we have the right to be a little salty.

[itti18]

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

Why should they every try anything new and interesting ever again. Cant say " Please include this next time" "Please include a way for me to do this" No just flat out DELETE. Because "If i dont enjoy it NO ONE should'

This is the whole reason this entire forum has become ONE big JOKE to everyone else. Your upset, you hate it, it sucks thats ALL that matters to all of you.

I hope you enjoy yourselves next time if were back grinding 500 dungeons 1000000 tomes running dungeons from 1 to 70 with RNG drops JUST because you couldnt come up with anything remotely useful or constructive to say. SO Please by all means PLEASE enjoy! and may the never ever try anything remotely unique or intersting again because it is JUST UNACCEPTABLE to you.

couldn't agree more , Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over

[HyoMinPark]

couldn't agree more , Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over

Eureka isn't anything new or revolutionary - all the relic steps inside of it have been done before (FATE farming, crystal farming, and light farming), and the idea of venturing to a "new" area for the relic also isn't new (Diadem 1.0 did this). Even RNG substats on the gear and weapon isn't new (again, Diadem did this and people didn't like it).

Diadem wasn't new or revolutionary either - its second iteration (the "huge revamp" they did of it) was nothing more than FATE farming with an RNG Emergency Mission that was failed more often than not because people didn't listen to the mechanics. There's a reason Diadem flopped twice, and it's not simply because the forum community is salty. Its only redeeming factor, in my opinion, was that I could gather ARR timed mode items in there. Too bad the developers didn't think to incorporating gathering into Eureka.

There's been plenty of constructive criticism towards Eureka, but it's always ignored: like the implementation of a party level sync feature that has been asked since Anemos released; or the incorporation of daily quests to earn crystals instead of having to always farm FATEs or mobs for them.

[Alleo]

couldn't agree more , Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over

If it was only a small part of the community (as in the one that go to the forum) that found Diadem and now Eureka bad content than they would not talk about maybe even taking out Diadem completely, they would not have needed to nerf Pagos so fast and they would not have needed to put so many items behind Pyros.

People can like the content they want, I dont care, but people are also allowed to utterly dislike a content and post about this. And if big amount of people do that, in all languages then there might be something wrong with it. We posted constructive feedback after Diadem 1.0 and got Diadem 2.0 which died even faster. We hoped that they would take all the feedback and make Eureka better and yet it felt like a worse Diadem 3.0..and even with Pyros they have not reacted to one of the most wanted feature, the level synch to play with friends.

Pyros might be better than Pagos but that is not that wonderful since Pagos was the bottom of it. They could have taken the Logos system to Anemos, introduce more ways to grind in there and maybe just maybe it would have been way better content from the start.

I hope that they do create new and innovative content in the next expansion, but Diadem or Eureka are not either of that..

[Reynhart]

Releasing what is essential a Siege mode dungeon has a far different experience than anything the game currently offers.

At the core, it's still "killing trash mobs and bosses". That's exactly why I said context matters.

Saying the challenge log gives a different vibe is, again, subjective, and a bit silly

No, it's not...doing the challenge doesn't require the same setup as chaining 5+lvl monsters, that's a totally different organisation.

What content is there for the general audience; the overwhelming majority?

Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

Put the relic in Diadem, even with randomization akin to what Pyros has now, and I guarantee it doesn't die within the first week.

Well, judging from several threads about Eureka, "lots" of people seem to have given up on the relic because of Eureka. Adding the absurd RNG of Diadem would only make more people skip it (Me included). Back then, they even tried to put the strongest weapon of HW in it, and it did nothing...no, scratch that, it made people hate Diadem even more because it could potentially kill the fflogs competition.

I hardly think people will care about say... the i380 Armor sets they threw in there.

Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

Regardless, every single example you provided has no need for a tomestone solution because there either isn't an arduous grind behind it or it already has a solution to remedy said grind.

I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

Things about RNG

The weapon has absolutely no RNG for the Anemos part, and the RNG for light in Pagos is really not that punishing, especially now that it's been patched. Sure, the coffers are random, but, you seems to have more of an issue with the relic, so it's a different topic. Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

Everything has an alternative here... except Eureka.

Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

Both the Zodiac and Anima relics had an alternative method of progression

The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

Since we already know Pagos requires 500 tokens, 50 Mendacity—a third of what you suggested—necessitates 25,000 tomes, which roughly puts it in line with the Umbrite step.

Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

[Nariel]

snip

You know, people want an alternative to Eureka because its crap, its not more complicated than this, whatever how previous relics worked.

Put a tomestone price on every step of SB relic and people that already don't do Eureka will more likely do the tomestone way, people that hate Eureka but bother with it for some of its reward and fear of the future will stop doing it and choose the tomestone path and the very niche people that enjoy themselve in this graveyard will continue to enjoy it with the other part of the player base who just don't care about fun and just want to do it faster (if its the most efficient, less likely cause they sure love to speedrun dungeon).

As simple as that.

Some people will still complain, cause it will remain crap but its more about how they wanted it to be good or for the others reward people want but can't put themselve to suffer it.

The armor is a special case, it was annouced as a relic armor so they get the same treatment as relic weapon in some people hearts.

Most people don't want Eureka to disapear, they more likely don't want it to absorb that much ressources and don't have to do it for their beloved reward. People don't like that much PvP lock reward too they don't ask its death because its a niche feature people don't boher with or barely play to get the reward far more faster than in Eureka, put the relic in it and hell will fall on its head too.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

This does not keep people subbed over a seven month period. There's a reason why people complain they have little to do. Not to mention, it's incredibly easy to cap each week, thus you finish all this content within 2-3 days even at a slow pace.

Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

No. This is yet another Strawman. What I said is if you put any other gear set in Eureka, people wouldn't care about it. They only cared about the Armor because it was the unique AF3 sets. When we found out they moved away from them and simply released generic sets, people were pretty much laughing. I guarantee very few people care about the Pyros armor sets now.

I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

This was in response to comments about other activities. Context is important. And calling Pagos not an tedious grind is amusing.

Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

Yes, but I can get them at my leisure. And should I elect to wait, they become far easier much faster than Eureka. Even now, Tsukiyomi falls over due to ilvl yet she's had no nerfs of any kind whatsoever. Despite being nerfed five times now Pagos remains a slog. And unlike the Primals, there are no mechanics or interactions you do for the most part. The primary focus is on endlessly killing trash mobs.

Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

To a point, yes. Everything you listed requires a brain. I would have far more interest in Eureka if NMs were the focus. Why? They have mechanics. I'm not just hitting target dummies that occasional proc. Now that doesn't mean trash mobs shouldn't exist or they can't be fun in and of themselves. But when 90% of what you do is killing brain dead trash... it's not exactly compelling gameplay.

Primals, Savage and PvP also offer their rewards faster. The exception to this are Feast Season rewards, which are another controversial issue and Primal mounts. The latter is still easier to obtain and less of a grind, ironically.

The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

Tomestones grinds, by their very nature, are an alternative. You earn them through doing almost anything.

I didn't like the Umbrite step much either but if I didn't feel like spamming ARF, I could do Dun Scaith, Beast Tribes or Alexander. These are all options. Eureka does not have this. You have a single method of progression. You have to kill trash mobs in Pagos for light. You have to kill NMs in Pagos for Crystals. There is no away around this. A major complaint has revolved around Pagos enforcing chaining mobs when people preferred the NM train—something they brought back, especially in Pyros. Which tells you right there the devs had to buckle on their own design because people hated it.

Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

Depends on how it were balanced. If light were obtained simultaneously, thus keeping it in line with Pagos, it limits that grind. Leveling in Pagos would still be an issue, though they remedied that already come Pyros by making it a breeze.

My point is you fancy Eureka. Which is fine. The complaint people have isn't Eureka itself necessarily, but that the relic—a weapon previously obtainable through running casual content—was relocated to a niche activity. Despite not being perfect by any means, a lot of people preferred the Anima relic and aren't happy they've now being forced into Eureka—content they may not like—when that wasn't the case for two iterations.

[Reynhart]

This does not keep people subbed over a seven month period.

I guess it keeps enough people subbed since Stormblood have still enough players to keep the same trend from ARR and HW.

I guarantee very few people care about the Pyros armor sets now.

People are interested in new and cool skins. From what I've heard, the flaw or Pyros armor is that that caster/healer looks the same, as tank/DRG...

And calling Pagos not an tedious grind is amusing.

Hold on, please, how did you move from "arduous" to "tedious" ? They don't have the same meaning at all...Because calling farming hundreds of primal tokens or running the same 4 fights over and over for weeks not tedious is really a big stretch (Especially if you lose several lot rolls in the process ) .

Despite being nerfed five times now Pagos remains a slog.

It really depends on you definition of "a slog". Like I said, in three weeks I went from elvl25 to elvl35 and a Pagos weapon, by only playing 3 or 4 Pagos session a week, and after a 2 month break so that Pagos was not fresh new anymore. It's really not that long of a grind.

Tomestones grinds, by their very nature, are an alternative. You earn them through doing almost anything.

The feeling I have with tomestones (And I'm only talking for me) is that it negates the values of any content. Because you're not really doing the content, you're just running through something just to gain your tomes. So, in the end, every Leveling Roulette feels the same, every lvl50/60 Roulette feel the same, and every Expert Roulette feels the same...especially the latter when you're restriced to doing the same two dungeons to cap your tomes each week for three months.

A major complaint has revolved around Pagos enforcing chaining mobs when people preferred the NM train—something they brought back, especially in Pyros.

Problem is, you see lots of people preferring the train because they've been told its faster, which, depending on you elvl, can be a blatant lie. And you still see people in Pagos farming Frozen Crystal with the train and complaining that it takes too much time.

The complaint people have isn't Eureka itself necessarily, but that the relic—a weapon previously obtainable through running casual content—was relocated to a niche activity.

The thing is, you also had people complaining that Relics didn't have their own content and they were basically only here to keep older content alive. As soon as Wondrous Tails was released, my first thought was that the reason was to take that task so that the next relic might solve that complain. Maybe it's why I was pretty much expecting what happened there. And I still think that Anima weapon was only done by a very small part of the playerbase so they shifted a niche reward to a niche activity which purpose was to try new mechanics on the battle system.