Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

[Arkdra]

What I want to happen: No new abilities for samurai at all. I think the kit is perfect in terms of what it does and how it plays and I can't imagine anything new added that wouldn't just be pointless bloat (group utility would be good bloat though). What I would prefer is a series of traits that files off some of the trickier parts of the rotation so mediocre players can get a better handle on it. I.e. I want them to cut the sen cost of hagakure and remove the kenki costs on gyoten and yaten since these skills all don't make obvious sense (as in you are a fresh samurai just reading the tooltips for the first time) how good/bad they are.

What I think will happen: PvP 1 button combos will make the transition to PvE, freeing up space for 4 new abilities. One of them will be some weak but appreciated group utility and the other 3 will be more damage abilities that I can't imagine how they fit into the rotation but are probably going to be boring things like a mini-gurren, another 3rd eye triggered ability, and maybe a defensive cooldown.

Joke option: I want an ATE during meditate where it shows an arrow and if I push the arrow it gives bonus kenki and then shows another arrow for more kenki and so on and so on until meditate ends.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

WWhat I think will happen: PvP 1 button combos will make the transition to PvE, freeing up space for 4 new abilities. One of them will be some weak but appreciated group utility and the other 3 will be more damage abilities that I can't imagine how they fit into the rotation but are probably going to be boring things like a mini-gurren, another 3rd eye triggered ability, and maybe a defensive cooldown.

Yoshida has stated outright in his recent interviews the one button combos will not be transitioning over to PvE. And thank god for that.

[Kabooa]

Yoshida has stated outright in his recent interviews the one button combos will not be transitioning over to PvE. And thank god for that.

Yeah, because 123 is much more interesting than 111

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yeah, because 123 is much more interesting than 111

I would rather press 1234 than spam 1111. At least I'm moving my finger, no matter how slight. And therein lies why people dislike the skill consolidation system. It's neither more difficult nor necessarily interesting, it simply feels better. If we had more combos or different branching combos, maybe it'd work better. Currently, it's simply reducing everything to the healer equivalent of spamming Broil. Sure, you have different animations, but it feels very boring to me. Just like it does on them. They aren't going to add 5+ GCDs to DRG either, thus I'll spend most of 5.x spamming 1 and 2 endlessly. I prefer 1234 and alt 1234. As I said, at least I move my fingers slightly compared to not at all.

Regardless, it's not really a solution anyway because it doesn't help the Casters. Even on the melee/tank side, only Ninja and Paladin are crying for hot bar space.

[Shurrikhan]

I would rather press 1234 than spam 1111. At least I'm moving my finger, no matter how slight. And therein lies why people dislike the skill consolidation system. It's neither more difficult nor necessarily interesting, it simply feels better. Currently, <combo consolidation> is simply reducing everything to the healer equivalent of spamming Broil. Sure, you have different animations, but it feels very boring to me. Just like it does on them. They aren't going to add 5+ GCDs to DRG either, thus I'll spend most of 5.x spamming 1 and 2 endlessly. I prefer 1234 and alt 1234. As I said, at least I move my fingers slightly compared to not at all.

I get that. Though bloated, I'd likely still use the 1234 due to muscle memory and as not to trip up from inattention, myself. I just don't consider there to be enough merit to forbid the option for those who are running out of comfortable button space (given hand size, etc.) and for whom the merit of comfort is greater than that of easier timing.

If we had more combos or different branching combos, maybe it'd work better.

Agreed. And while Fire IV can feel satisfying despite its relatively redundant nature, that's hardly true of Heavy Shot, Malefic, or Stone, whatever their ranks. But that'd mean requiring more than 3 GCD actions from each melee (well, 4 from SAM and up to 9 from MNK)... I just hope XIV doesn't continue to assume players irredeemable stupid, under the guise of "combo" systems.

Regardless, it's not really a solution anyway because it doesn't help the Casters. Even on the melee/tank side, only Ninja and Paladin are crying for hot bar space.

There is some fairly considerable bind-trimming the non-melee can benefit from too, though.

Why should Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV be separate keys when they cannot be used separately? Why should Summon Bahamut be separate from Enkindle Bahamut? Or DWT from Deathflare, so long as the latter could not be queued before the first has finished activating? And Red Mage has its own melee combo.

Further, Straighter Shot is virtually never taken over Refulgent Arrow and Gauss Barrel may as well be a trait, just as Darkside and either tank DPS stance may as well be (Sword Oath and Deliverance merely deactivating during their respective tank stances).

[Shurrikhan]

Yoshida has stated outright in his recent interviews the one button combos will not be transitioning over to PvE. And thank god for that.

Right, I do so love using 5 different buttons to perform the same, single separable action on DRG...

I'd be cheering if our weaponskills were finally open to different sequences and situationals, but I cannot for the life of me understand how hitting 12345 or 67895 for Actions 1 and 2, respectively, is somehow better design than pressing 1 for as many GCDs as Action 1 takes, and 2 for as many GCDs as Action 2 takes.

[Grimoire-M]

Right, I do so love using 5 different buttons to perform the same, single separable action on DRG...

I'd be cheering if our weaponskills were finally open to different sequences and situationals, but I cannot for the life of me understand how hitting 12345 or 67895 for Actions 1 and 2, respectively, is somehow better design than pressing 1 for as many GCDs as Action 1 takes, and 2 for as many GCDs as Action 2 takes.

To be honest it's the one thing that differentiates DRG from the other melee DPS in terms of their GCD rotation in the first place. MNK has flexible combos based on their stances, NIN/SAM have different combo branches (though not by much), and DRG has longer, linear combos that eventually cross over one another . One is for buffs/debuffs, the other is filler. That is a part of their identity. Preserving it is worth the effort. Plus if SE did go the route of consolidating the combo buttons down, it wouldn't hurt anyone to have the whole buff combo on 2 and the filler on 1, with Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust replacing both buttons once they're reached.

[Shurrikhan]

To be honest it's the one thing that differentiates DRG from the other melee DPS in terms of their GCD rotation in the first place. MNK has flexible combos based on their stances, NIN/SAM have different combo branches (though not by much), and DRG has longer, linear combos that eventually cross over one another . One is for buffs/debuffs, the other is filler. That is a part of their identity. Preserving it is worth the effort.

The one thing differentiating DRG from the other melee is that of their 3 possible Single-Target GCD actions (Debuff combo, Direct combo, and Heavy Thrust), 2 are 5-GCDs-long and 1 is 1 GCD-, rather than the typical spread of 2-to-3 GCDs per action. All but Monk has only 3 GCD decisions possible, their combos. On average, if rotation were not already fixed anyways, a DRG is able to make a decision every 3.67 GCDs. A NIN -- every 3 GCDs. A SAM -- every 2.67, plus whether to hold Iajutsu, making it arguably every GCD. A Monk -- every GCD. Those decisions will be mostly predetermined, but that is the core of DRG's "unique" play. DRG makes fewer GCD decisions. That's it. Similarly to SAM's Kenki and Sen banking--though in a way far less integral to microrotation--has a fair bit of timing flexibility in its Mirage Dive and (a bit less) in Gier/Nost usage as to sync to BfB and TA/BL/HC/FR/BV/CS/BH/EB/Cards, but that is what the long combos mean.

Do you actually feel anything from F&C crossing WT? They're very nearly identical abilities, differed only by name, animation, and a positional you'd already be set up for ((Back) CT to (Back) WT; (Any) FT to (Flank) F&C). It's just potency and maintenance, where you'd only actually need two hits of either per BotD of either to maintain eyes.

What merit there overwhelms the prospects, of, say, actually being able to go ID-VT-Db-F&C-WT-CT-ST-FT for entirely different reasons than one might go ID-ID-F&C-FT-Db-CT-WT (or any other n-factorial or greater choices over n GCDs) due to the synergies and situationally optimal combinations intrinsic to the effects embedded within the skills themselves?

Is it... the bloat? The ruttedness? What's the merit worth 1-22222-33333 for? I get the attraction to long combos, and would love to see that within the embedded effects, weighing the punctuation of a combo vs. its momentum, attempting to stretch it further and further while still fitting the modulars of your upcoming CDs, but when it's literally 5 presses for the same obvious but irrevocable decision... I can't see the attraction. I can't even call it uniquely stale, just... the stalest.

[Grimoire-M]

Snip

I feel like all DRG's GCD rotation needs to make it interesting is to add a dynamic finisher without a positional requirement that you could use at any point instead of F&C/WT or after using one or both in their appropriate sequences, with higher potency scaling than they have to maintain average DPS, but not high enough to make the positionals not matter. I don't feel that F&C and WT on their own are that interesting either. However, I can see how to make the combo length and order matter and be more interesting, and offer multiple breakpoints and rotations based on skill speed and fight dynamics, which is worth keeping the current combos around for. And it only takes one button to accomplish this. Using mechanics that they've already introduced into DRG's current kit.


I don't feel that we need to start their combos from a single point so much as we need to have Heavy Thrust merged into Impulse Drive and that finisher to be added. Sure, SE could pair it down a little more and merge ID and HT with True Thrust, but it doesn't really make sense to allow their filler combo to apply their damage buff. Might as well bake it into their potencies instead at that point, basically. It would likely shift to Disembowel or Chaos Thrust in that case, which makes even less sense given the names used for those skills, without adding much more to them either.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I get that. Though bloated, I'd likely still use the 1234 due to muscle memory and as not to trip up from inattention, myself. I just don't consider there to be enough merit to forbid the option for those who are running out of comfortable button space (given hand size, etc.) and for whom the merit of comfort is greater than that of easier timing.

Because it wouldn't be optional. They aren't going to design a system allowing skill consolidation while still pruning out abilities as both require time and re-balancing to some extent. Therefore, if the latter were implemented, it would undoubtedly result in them not pruning anything, essentially telling people who dislike it to "suck it up" and deal with an ever growing hotbar space.

Agreed. And while Fire IV can feel satisfying despite its relatively redundant nature, that's hardly true of Heavy Shot, Malefic, or Stone, whatever their ranks. But that'd mean requiring more than 3 GCD actions from each melee (well, 4 from SAM and up to 9 from MNK)... I just hope XIV doesn't continue to assume players irredeemable stupid, under the guise of "combo" systems.

Given they brought Heavy Thrust down from 15% to 10% because some people found it too difficult keeping the buff consistently. I, sadly, have my doubts they'll stop catering to the criminally dumb crowd.

There is some fairly considerable bind-trimming the non-melee can benefit from too, though.

Why should Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV be separate keys when they cannot be used separately? Why should Summon Bahamut be separate from Enkindle Bahamut? Or DWT from Deathflare, so long as the latter could not be queued before the first has finished activating? And Red Mage has its own melee combo.

Further, Straighter Shot is virtually never taken over Refulgent Arrow and Gauss Barrel may as well be a trait, just as Darkside and either tank DPS stance may as well be (Sword Oath and Deliverance merely deactivating during their respective tank stances).

See, this are scenarios in which merging buttons together makes more sense. It's a bit less cut and dry for Black Mage, though I'm not well versed enough to discuss how their rotation works button wise. Meanwhile, I have advocated Refulgent should essentially upgrade over Straight Shot when it procs because you'll always take it in that scenario. Gauss Barrel and Darkside shouldn't even be buttons anymore. They do nothing as you'll never turn them off.

I feel like all DRG's GCD rotation needs to make it interesting is to add a dynamic finisher

We call this Nastrond. Dragoon's entire kit is built around storing eyes and unleashing them. We don't need nor necessarily want a Midare or Tornado Kick equivalent because that isn't what Dragoon is. We're not meant to be a high burst job any more than Ninja, who themselves lacks a "finisher." Both are intended to offer sustained damage throughout a given encounter.