Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[SigmaOZ]

Relic weapons should not be so hard to get since they always end up being just glamours, all the grinding is a real waste of time compared to raiders whom are able to get their weapons much faster, if lucky enough and remain relevant much longer!...


Why do you players like things the hard way!?...


I just want my glowing relic weapons to be really easy to get so I don't waste my valuable life time getting them!...

[Aquaslash]

TBH I just want alternatives. I don't want to be stuck with a god awful weapon just cause it's the only one with a high ilevel. There is nothing wrong with more options. Classes are already using crafted pieces as BiS now, and I imagine the relic armor's gonna throw a huge wrench into that and I look forward to it.

Besides, the best reward from the raid is unquestionably that rad Omega mount. Just need the devs to fix it to play eScape and all is right in the world

[AxlStream]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

Knock knock! Who's there? Raid! Raid who? RAID LOCKOUT YA LIL PUNK!

You do know savage takes most groups a while to even get to the last fight which drops weapons right? Raiders aren't all badasses of untold skill level that clear everything on pace with world firsts. The tier has been open for a month and personally my group is still on 10S. Most groups are at 10S or 11S. When they do get to 12S, it'll be a while again until they clear. And then they'll get at worse 1 weapon a week or at best 2 a week.

The raid weapon is so much more commitement than the relics ever were and ever will be.

[technole]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

Ignorance is bliss.

Cause some raiders don't even get their Omega i405 after a month of O12S clears. Bad RNG could mean only four unique weapons for a raid via the coffer drop, and the other drops for jobs they don't play after a month.

If you PUG O12S and never get your weapon coffer drop, Otherwise they will need to spend 8 pages, or two months of clears.

[Vaer]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

The best weapons in FFXI are relics. The Bosses in Escha zones drop some freebie weapons that count as Raid weapons but are no where near as powerful as the relics or as what FFXI calls them "R.E.M.A" weapons.

Having the Relics/Eurekan weapons at the same ilvl as Raid weapons, gives all players something to progress and log in for. Reducing it as a glamour item killed it.

Not everyone likes to raid. Just like not everyone likes to do Relics/Eureka. Raiders have something to do every week. Give the casuals something to do as well, progression wise that is actually worth the time doing not just for glamour.

Not no incentive, less incentive. Weapons are only for players that clear the entire thing, just like the mount. Once they drop the catchup patch where you can get the upgrade items you can get comparable gear to the first 3 raid turns except maybe 1 ring due to them being unique.

IIRC They've also tried this before. When the game was released the relic actually had ilvl of the raid weapon at 90. They buffed the raid weapon by 5 ilvls in 2.1 then left it like that. This was when the relic was gated behind titan (hard).
In HW, during gordias the relic had the same ilvl as the raid weapon, but was super grindy that people came here to complain (unidentified step), and when midas came out they went back to +5 and it has been like that ever since.

I'd be cool with it if there were skill checks involved (i.e. clearing ex primals, a solo instance that is a mechanic check made specifically for relic, etc) and not just grinding mild difficulty content for 60 hours per step.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

- Suzaku and 4.5 Primal are useless outside mount farming
The 'base' relic would be at the same iLvl as the Suzaku weapon. The relic would still be better, due to the extra materia slots, but the Suzaku weapon would be a faster less-grindy option. Alternatively, go back to primals dropping accessories, possibly with a rare chance of a weapon (turning glamour into part of the incentive to farm for the weapons).

We only have Anemos as the baseline for a relic grind of both weapons and gear. Even if we extend the length of that template, it wouldn't take longer than two weeks to grind out a relic. In fact, despite how horrendously tedious Pagos is, you could, technically, have a weapon in 2-4 weeks. Suzaku, meanwhile is intended to last for the patch's entire duration, not less than a month. Furthermore, if you can upgrade it to i395, this still defeats the purpose of a 4.5 Primal. As for a glamour weapon. They already do that with Primal crafted weapons released later on.

- Crafted gear markets crash obscenely fast
With relic gear at i380, it would be the same as the Crafted gear, and would boil down to stat combinations, and overmelding vs. 5 guaranteed melds. They could even raise the relic gear to i385 or 390 with the odd-numbered patch, if they decide to augment the crafted gear again (i380>i390, similar to the i350>i360 thing in 4.3).
Crafted weapons sorta get the short end of the stick here.
All in all, it'd come down to "Get gear upgrades now" vs. "Get gear upgrades after a grind", with Alphascale normal being sort of a middle ground.

The only scenario where Crafted gear would be better is if the relic gear had Skill/Spell Speed on jobs that dislike it. Regardless, Crafted gear lasts throughout the entire tier as people continuously opt to purchase it, though sales typically drop once Normal Mode is unlocked. Having Relic Armor obtainable immediately, speeds up this process, which means within a month or so, crafters have much less options when it comes to making a profit.

- Alphascape Normal is obsolete
Both of these would depend on how much of a grind it'd be to get the relic gear/weapon. People who want a less grindy way of gearing would have this as an option, along with the crystalloid from v12.

It takes five weeks to obtain a full set of left side gear from Normal Mode; seven if you include the Crystalloid. Even Pagos, grind-y as it were didn't take that long. Considering the devs have already mentioned using Anemos as their template, we can assume Pyros' grind will be considerably reduced. Keep in mind, acquiring a second relic piece is already significantly faster since you aren't waiting for information to be released nor do you have to level.

- Tome weapons are more or less useless
In this scenario, the tomestone weapon would still be 5 iLvls higher than the relic, although its strength should be relatively the same (due to the extra materia slots). Players who grind out the relic fast enough, will be able to obtain a weapon slightly better than the tomestone weapon, before other players get their Scaevan Esters from v11s.

That tomestone weapon comes at a cost: 1,000 tomes which could be otherwise put towards your gear upgrades. A relic, meanwhile, costs nothing except time. And as noted above, even with a grind longer than Anemos, it becomes easier on subsequent attempts. Basically, the relic would need to take much longer than three weeks or using your tomes on a weapon would simply be a complete waste.

- 24 man gear serves no purpose as a "catch up" drop
Considering what their stance on the "greed-only" thing was, with how they saw 24-man gear to be "catch up" gear for alt jobs, I don't think this would be affected all that much with an increase in relic iLvl
Even then, if they decide to go with raising the relic gear to i385/i390 in the odd-numbered patch, it'd still only be slightly stronger than the 24-man gear.

Slightly stronger with no restriction. I can only obtain one piece of gear from the 24 man each week, whereas I can grind to my hearts content should I choose. By the time 4.3 rolled around, I had full relic sets for multiple jobs. Even if we assume Pyros' grind will be longer than Anemos, it will still render 24 man loot drops obsolete.

The relic being a huge grind doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, if it's a grind that actually feels rewarding once the player has finished it. This is why it's important to keep it closer to the raid weapon iLvl, and add it earlier. A big reason why I never went from the Pagos weapon was because of when they added it. I just knew that by the time I had obtained it, I'd only be able to enjoy it for maybe a week or two before being able to just grab a higher iLvl crafted or primal weapon.

I agree, which is what Heavensward did. You don't accomplish this by invalidating every other means of progression or severely diminishing their relevancy. Another factor not considered is how this impacts queues. People are far less likely to continuously spam Normal Mode or farm Suzaku EX when they can grind Eureka for a better reward. Unless, of course, the design is so abysmal, no one wants to bother. I don't think we should hope for another poor render of Eureka just to keep alternative content relevant.

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

I'll throw this argument back at you. Why do you need weapon/gear equivalent to raiders for dungeons? Even Eureka itself syncs you done, thus your ilvl is entirely irrelevant. And no, we cannot farm Savage. It can take upwards of eight weeks to obtain your chest piece from O12S. Even with the guaranteed coffer each week, that still requires eight weeks before everyone has their weapon unless RNG favors your group. Furthermore, none of this accounts for the potential length it takes to clear Savage. Eureka is a static, ultimately brainless endeavour. It never changes, making the only obstacle how much time you're willing to invest. Raiding, on the other hand, requires a collective group of eight people planning out a schedule where everyone will be available, each player needs to be relatively skilled and should any of you pug outside these allotted times, you punish your group.

So even if we assume obtaining a relic weapon at i405 takes a month. The vast majority of statics will not have even cleared O12S yet. Even those who cleared week one will still have upwards of four members without a weapon and/or body piece. Therefore, the relic now because more efficient than Savage for gearing purposes.

What it boils down to is raiders get a jump on gear progression and a better weapon to reward them for clearing significantly harder content. You're asking that reward be taken away because you want equally good gear... for less effort. Like Vaer said, I would be far more open to the idea if it required some degree of skill. Killing thousands of brain dead mobs or spamming dungeons isn't the same level of effort as learning a sixteen minute dance you're expected to perform near flawlessly.

[Wijnand]

Why do the raiders think that if the Relic weapon is the same level as the Raid weapon, there would be no incentive to raid?

Like why would you care if someone got a Ilvl405 Relic weapon that glows after that person took an entire month of grinding to make? It takes absolutely nothing from anyone who raids. In fact, obtaining a weapon thru raiding is and was always easier if you have a static, since once you know the mechanics, you can just farm it.

The best weapons in FFXI are relics. The Bosses in Escha zones drop some freebie weapons that count as Raid weapons but are no where near as powerful as the relics or as what FFXI calls them "R.E.M.A" weapons.

Having the Relics/Eurekan weapons at the same ilvl as Raid weapons, gives all players something to progress and log in for. Reducing it as a glamour item killed it.

Not everyone likes to raid. Just like not everyone likes to do Relics/Eureka. Raiders have something to do every week. Give the casuals something to do as well, progression wise that is actually worth the time doing not just for glamour.

It is obvious you haven't raided before. And it is really hard to explain to you why people would be against this so much but lets give it a shot.

1.) Getting to O12S requires for some groups weeks/months
2.) it can take 1-8 weeks to get your relic weapon once you hit that phase.
3.) you cannot "grind" weapons out until 3 weeks before the new patch launch.

Savage is meant for people who want to push their skills to the limits and to do content designed for people with determination and the will to learn a set of scripted fights. Your entirely entitled to not ever step foot in any savage. However you can also understand there has to be a reward for doing savage. in ARR we had story gated behind it and it was a valid concern why people didn't like that so we got the normal mode for raids.

That leaves us with weapons, in the end you do not need a weapon that is the same if you don't raid. And giving people who want to play casually the best weapons the game has to offer that can take 10,000 whatevers to gather still removes any real incentive to learn a fight deal with people you don't like and be stressed over wiping countless times.

There have been weeks where i had 0 to show with my static when we were working on O8S. adding any grindy weapon no matter how long would kill most people's need to learn that fight. You haven't given much argument on why you need a bigger stick for what your doing.Nothing in the casual world cannot be done with a 380 weapon right now. The only reason you could want a 405 relic out of the gate is cause you want to skip steps.

It is entirely fine and I respect that viewpoint but also understand there has to be balance in this game. And it cannot be balanced that way. I know I won't raid anymore if i can get a equal relic weapon cause that is consistent grinding and i will get it consistently (unless its that pit pagos). Eventually in 4.5.5 relic will be the same as the savage weapon like always.

[Kazgrel]

Oooo, it’s this “argument” again.

Someone who isn’t even trying to raid savage doesn’t even need a weapon past, say, a HoH weapon. Let the raiders earn their trophy weapons. Non raiders will get catch ups later. It’s how it’s been virtually the entire time since I’ve been playing. That template isn’t broken in the eyes of the devs (and many players).

I suggest getting good and do savage (or EX primals at the very least) so you can have decent weapons that aren’t time/resource gated like tome weapons or a gigantic pain the the butt to grind out like our lovely Eureka weapons. If it’s all about the glamour, wait until next xpac when it should be mega nerfed into the dirt.

[Rufalus]

They could make eureka weapon equal to raid weapon without invalidating other options just by making it a ridiculous grind. People who have a lot of time can work on that if they really want to. Everyone else have to wait for nerfs to the grind or get the raid, trial, tome, crafted weapon. But the problem if they make eureka a 500-hour grind on release for its highest upgrade, people won't understand that it's just a temporary measure to slow people down and there will be a lot of complaints that the grind is horrible and impossible to get for people who don't have much time to play.

[Nezerius]

snip

I'm just going to assume that you didn't bother reading my post(s), aside from the one line of text where I said that progressing your character is fun. If you had, you'd have known that I don't agree with putting the relic at the same iLvl as the savage weapon, but close to it (i395 vs. i405).

So is using fancy glam. Take the stuff off the mog station and let us grind for it.

See how well that works?

Sure thing, I'd rather grind for those mogstation glamours than having to pay for them, after all.

Not sure what you were trying to accomplish with this one.

We only have Anemos as the baseline for a relic grind of both weapons and gear. Even if we extend the length of that template, it wouldn't take longer than two weeks to grind out a relic. In fact, despite how horrendously tedious Pagos is, you could, technically, have a weapon in 2-4 weeks. Suzaku, meanwhile is intended to last for the patch's entire duration, not less than a month. Furthermore, if you can upgrade it to i395, this still defeats the purpose of a 4.5 Primal. As for a glamour weapon. They already do that with Primal crafted weapons released later on.

We also have both the HW and ARR relic grinds, since a suggestion like this couldn't be properly developed for during this expansion. Make it so a player who grinds regularly will be able to obtain both the weapon and the set about 2-4 weeks before the odd-numbered patch. The average person would get it shortly before said patch, while the crazy-no-life-grinding player would get it earlier than that (but really, should you even balance things with that last one in mind?) That should be enough of a grind for players to decide whether they want to go for it, or take one of the less grindy alternatives.
As for the 4.5 primal, it'd drop i395 weapons anyway (See: i365 Zurvanite weapons, i375 Alexandrian weapons).

The only scenario where Crafted gear would be better is if the relic gear had Skill/Spell Speed on jobs that dislike it. Regardless, Crafted gear lasts throughout the entire tier as people continuously opt to purchase it, though sales typically drop once Normal Mode is unlocked. Having Relic Armor obtainable immediately, speeds up this process, which means within a month or so, crafters have much less options when it comes to making a profit.

This is assuming the relic set takes less than a month to get. You'd also have to keep in mind that Crafted gear would be getting augmented versions in the odd-numbered patches (See: 4.3, i350>i360 augmentation).

It takes five weeks to obtain a full set of left side gear from Normal Mode; seven if you include the Crystalloid. Even Pagos, grind-y as it were didn't take that long. Considering the devs have already mentioned using Anemos as their template, we can assume Pyros' grind will be considerably reduced. Keep in mind, acquiring a second relic piece is already significantly faster since you aren't waiting for information to be released nor do you have to level.

Considering this suggestion is too late to be properly applied to Pyros (or Eureka in general), it'd be pointless to completely focus on how it'd be with the Anemos way of grinding it.

That tomestone weapon comes at a cost: 1,000 tomes which could be otherwise put towards your gear upgrades. A relic, meanwhile, costs nothing except time. And as noted above, even with a grind longer than Anemos, it becomes easier on subsequent attempts. Basically, the relic would need to take much longer than three weeks or using your tomes on a weapon would simply be a complete waste.

The tomestone would still have 5 iLvls over both the i385 and the i395 versions of the relic (the latter when augmenting the tomestone weapon). While you'd be able to augment the relic 1 floor before the one that drops Scaevan Esters, The time it'd take to get the relic should be enough for the more dedicated raiders to get one. Not to mention that the 4.5 primal weapon would be 5 iLvls above the base tomestone weapon.
Also, this one can easily be turned around: Why grind for a relic when you could just get a tomestone weapon?

Slightly stronger with no restriction. I can only obtain one piece of gear from the 24 man each week, whereas I can grind to my hearts content should I choose. By the time 4.3 rolled around, I had full relic sets for multiple jobs. Even if we assume Pyros' grind will be longer than Anemos, it will still render 24 man loot drops obsolete.

You're too focused on the way Eureka works, when XIV has had relic grind before Eureka (even if this is the first one to have relic armor). Besides, have you ever run the 24-man raid to upgrade pieces on your main job?

I agree, which is what Heavensward did. You don't accomplish this by invalidating every other means of progression or severely diminishing their relevancy. Another factor not considered is how this impacts queues. People are far less likely to continuously spam Normal Mode or farm Suzaku EX when they can grind Eureka for a better reward. Unless, of course, the design is so abysmal, no one wants to bother. I don't think we should hope for another poor render of Eureka just to keep alternative content relevant.

And that's how the grind should be. The way SE forced the relic grind into its own instance was a mistake, and I sure hope the 5.x relic will go back to how things were in ARR/HW.