Non-binary option for characters, please?

[Velhart]

I'll keep saying what I want, thanks. You don't have to prove them, because 1) it's already been done, and 2) I don't care if you remain ignorant

Just saying, your arguments don't hold water and only speak from authority when you say I don't have to give anything to back up my claims, it is what it is and you just take what I say as right. You don't win arguments this way and it just makes you look bad. Just some Debating 101.

[OurMom]

It doesn't matter what way you spin it, here. It is not correct because they are not the same things.

According to the Merriam's dictionary and a thesaurus they basically are.

In the dictionary "gender" means "the state of being male or female" and under synonyms "sex" is the first one listed. The first synonymy for "sex" is "gender" not all that surprising right? Just in case anyone is confused "synonym" means "the same or nearly the same meaning". A thesaurus and the Merriam's dictionary are both extremely credible sources for definitions for the American English language.

Tl;dr "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable.

just about every trans person in existence serves as proof

That's not credible (or proof at all) proof that sex and gender are completely different.

[Vonleo]

This thread is stupid /end thread

[Fynlar]

According to the Merriam's dictionary and a thesaurus they basically are.

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

Tl;dr "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable.

Nope.

That's not credible (or proof at all) proof that sex and gender are completely different.

Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.


EDIT: Woot, daily limit has been reached. Good night everyone!

If you aren't here to try to persuade people to see things from your perspective why are you posting in this thread?

Simple, because people are being wrong on the internet(!) and I usually feel compelled to speak up when that happens. It's not up to me to get people to listen. I've found that people will usually believe whatever they want.

It's also been quite enlightening to see how progressive (or lack thereof. regressive?) some folks here are.

You don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

Oh, I am, though. I wouldn't still be here if I wasn't.

Except it isn't. That's not what "defines" a trans person and saying sex and gender are interchangeable doesn't deny that they exist nor their struggles.

Sex and gender being interchangeable doesn't mean you have to be mean to a trans person. Every non tumblr trans person I met acknowledges and knows they're the same thing but it doesn't stop how their brain works and that's fine.

Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist, because for them it is not the same. You must be operating on some pretty strange logic if you think that isn't a mean judgment to make of another person.


Every trans person I've ever met would not say they are the same, because that is exactly why they identify as trans in the first place.

Yep, it now has two meanings, it happens, words change and evolve. For yet another example see how gender and sex have gone from being interchangeable terms to being distinct terms with separate meanings...

No, it doesn't. People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.


Likewise, sex and gender never were interchangeable. It's only been done (and is still done) because of ignorance as to their meaning.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'll keep saying what I want, thanks. You don't have to prove them, because 1) it's already been done, and 2) I don't care if you remain ignorant

Just about every trans person in existence serves as proof, and there are a lot of them. If you wanna go be a bigot to their faces, hell, I won't stop ya. Karma has a way of paying back its debts in the end.

It's good to know that Tumblr is apparently where all your research on the matter comes from. No wonder you think it's a joke.

Your 6000 years of human history don't really account for squat. We're in the 21th century now; try joining us.





Nope. Bunch of people using it wrong does not mean it's gained another meaning; it means it's gained a bunch of idiots who literally cannot use literally correctly.

If you aren't here to try to persuade people to see things from your perspective why are you posting in this thread? You don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

I'm personally rather opposed to a lot of this far left ideology but I know several people who prefer they pronouns and they approached me respectfully about using them so I do. I slip up sometimes and apologize, in my head they are all still clearly women, but I attempt to humor them because it's polite.

You literally can't even garner that level of support with this kind of combative, argumentative posting. Chill out.

[OurMom]

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

Where is your credible source/proof that they are wrong? The dictionary does update and change, that is true but they haven't budged on that yet because there's no science that suggests we need to change it because it's....hold on......correct.

Nope.

Double nope, because in the American English language, they are.

Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.

Except it isn't. That's not what "defines" a trans person and saying sex and gender are interchangeable doesn't deny that they exist nor their struggles.

Sex and gender being interchangeable doesn't mean you have to be mean to a trans person. Every non tumblr trans person I met acknowledges and knows they're the same thing but it doesn't stop how their brain works and that's fine.

Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist

Oh but it's not, because there's plenty of trans people that agree they are the same thing yet don't feel it's threatening their existence. Because their condition still exists and it doesn't change the fact they feel like the other sex.

People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.

...I feel like this should be said to you? You're literally saying the freaking dictionary is wrong, a thesaurus is wrong, and everything we use as a credible source for the US English language is wrong while providing zero proof/sources...

No matter how many times you say something is wrong and use the words wrong it does not change their meaning, end of story.

[YukinoAmidala]

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.


Nope.


Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.

"This information differs from my opinion so that means it's wrong. I don't have to provide sources or evidence to any of my points though because my opinion is fact."

[Jandor]

Nope. Bunch of people using it wrong does not mean it's gained another meaning; it means it's gained a bunch of idiots who literally cannot use literally correctly.

Yep, it now has two meanings, it happens, words change and evolve. etc. etc.

Like what happened to gender, how it used to be interchangeable with sex, but now is mostly used to refer to cultural and social differences rather than biological ones.

[Niwashi]

I would go so far as to add a gender neutral toggle in character creation (or perhaps a separate character creation option to select your pronoun).

In a game whose developers can't even give equal treatment to the two main genders which it does support, because making gear to fit both is apparently just too much effort to be worthwhile, I'm pretty sure we're not going to see a third character model option for each tribe of each race. People are still going to have to pick which gender's character model they're going to use, and they're still going to be limited to the gear, hairstyles, poses, and emotes available to that character model.

At most, if this suggestion were implemented, it would be limited to dialog and titles.

I'm wondering what words you want used instead of "he" and "she". "They" could be used but ...

The request wasn't for non-gendered NPCs to be in the story. It was for the ability to make our own player character be non-binary. When NPCs are talking to the player character, the pronoun used for that player character is neither "he" nor "she". It's "you". That word isn't gendered in any of the game's four supported languages, so pronouns are really not the main issue here (though of course they often are in real life, which is probably why they're what came to mind and spawned a whole sub-discussion here about pronouns).

The gendered terms the game would need to adapt are things like lad / lass / ?, and lady / lord / ?, and probably a couple dozen or so other pairs that would need to be turned into trios of terms and phrases.

Regarding 'they' being confusing, it really isn't; there are occasions in normal conversation where you will use it, probably without thinking or noticing.

While a bit of a tangent to the suggestion (which as I said above, doesn't really involve pronouns), I did want to mention something about this. Certainly the word "they" can be and quite often is used clearly and unambiguously to refer to one person, but that's different than being able to just substitute it in wherever "he" or "she" is used.

At a rough approximation, I'd guess around 3/4 of the places a singular third person pronoun is used, the word "they" can be simply substituted without changing the meaning of the sentence. Another 20% or so can be reworded enough to make it clear. And then there's the other 5% of the time that it can be really difficult to come up with a clear non gendered way of phrasing what you want to say without the phrasing getting really awkward just to avoid gendered pronouns. Nobody is claiming that it can never work, just that it isn't a global panacea to the problem.

In order for pronouns to make sense, it needs to be clear who or what they're referring to. The gender of the pronoun often gives a clue to what its antecedent is, and in some cases even changes whether there needs to be an antecedent or not. A sentence like "they should do <xyz>" is quite often just a way of saying "<xyz> should be done", with the term "they" just representing a vague sense of "whoever does such things" rather than representing a particular person or people who were under discussion. "He" and "she" are not only different by being singular. They're also different by being clearly specific.



(EDIT: Wow, this thread got long fast. I'd read through the first page (at a 40 post per page setting) to then see this response end up on page 6. I probably won't read all the intervening posts, though I may skim through a bit.)

[Sigma-Astra]

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

Nope.

Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.


EDIT: Woot, daily limit has been reached. Good night everyone!


Simple, because people are being wrong on the internet(!) and I usually feel compelled to speak up when that happens. It's not up to me to get people to listen. I've found that people will usually believe whatever they want.

It's also been quite enlightening to see how progressive (or lack thereof. regressive?) some folks here are.


Oh, I am, though. I wouldn't still be here if I wasn't.





Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist, because for them it is not the same. You must be operating on some pretty strange logic if you think that isn't a mean judgment to make of another person.


Every trans person I've ever met would not say they are the same, because that is exactly why they identify as trans in the first place.





No, it doesn't. People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.


Likewise, sex and gender never were interchangeable. It's only been done (and is still done) because of ignorance as to their meaning.

This is a lot of inflated ego and words for a simple and classic "No you." response.