Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Gallus]

Admittedly, I haven't been following this conversation because I've been playing defense on something i misspoke about, this did catch my eye. I'm just gonna take this line to its logical conclusion. If several different players in different instances, who don't even know each other, all say the same thing, like heal more, as an example, then maybe the "offended" player should heal more in this example.

If you are playing a healer and anything goes wrong, every single person is going to most likely complain about your healing role. But you are still assuming that the person complaining is right. If it happens however, very often, it is likely you are doing something wrong as a healer; the causes, I don't know, it could be because they are new, have low expectations, play the game occasionally or even have some sort of physical/mental handicap, it could be a lot of things. The "they refuse to learn" line is the easiest one to assume because it gives you automatic permission to go wild on whoever you think is doing something wrong.

[Penthea]

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had?

Because if this is all they say then the implication is that the issue is only the healer's fault.

[KaivaC]

If you are playing a healer and anything goes wrong, every single person is going to most likely complain about your healing role. But you are still assuming that the person complaining is right. If it happens however, very often, it is likely you are doing something wrong as a healer; the causes, I don't know, it could be because they are new, have low expectations, play the game occasionally or even have some sort of physical/mental handicap, it could be a lot of things. The "they refuse to learn" line is the easiest one to assume because it gives you automatic permission to go wild on whoever you think is doing something wrong.

I can honestly refute this, because my main role during stormbloods first month, my main was an AST. When things went south, my heals were rarely a subject, and when they were, I took the criticism and suggestions, and I adjusted to become a better healer. And this was before I joined the raiding scene. Seems to me that giving a player either criticism or suggestions automatically equates to harassment or close to harassment. Tanks and dps can easily be subjected to criticism and suggestions as well.

[Gallus]

...how is "heals????" drawing away any potential responsibility that tank might had? When I die despite having a cooldown up and dodging every attack I can, its very much the healers fault - I did all in my power to prevent my death.

I realise that my version is only one of many that can exist

Exactly.

but so is yours (the one in which the tank didnt do their share), yet you made such a general statment out of it, that I felt the need to correct that a bit.

Not the way I see it. I said that a tank who automatically replies with a "heals????????" is automatically putting all the blame on the healer (whether they are right or wrong, that's a different story), and that that comment will often not be welcomed by the other side (for obvious reasons) we agree on that one right? Like I don't write 10 question marks all while thinking I may have had part of responsibility there?

You can die from many things - not using your cooldowns, not doing mechanics correctly, someone else not doing mechanics correctly... but a healer not healing is very much possible aswell. And asking them to perform their primary job-function at that point isnt harassment (at least when done without adding "you noob" at the end). Asking someone to pay attention and perform their basic role isnt harassment.

Depending on when and how you do it, it can be naturally perceived as a hostile reaction in the heat of the moment.

[Daibunnie]

It comes off as hostile though. The 90 question marks are not needed. You are already setting the grounds for bad things to happen in that run. If for whatever reason, the healer makes another mistake, what are you going to do, add 1 question mark to your already 90? Most likely a recrimination or two are going to slip, and from there it all goes downhill. The underperformer won't learn a thing, and the only thing you'll manage for them to obtain in that run is a bitter experience.

It’s 3 question marks and they’re calling out the healer who is in charge of healing the party along with their cohealer. No amount of crying and yelling “harrassment” will change that they do have a responsibility when in any raid. In the end, the other players could easily not say anything and just kick you for being a bad healer who is too busy making mistakes. No one has any obligations to teach you how to play your class on their own time, especially not in a clear/farm party.

Speaking of bitter experiences, wonder how many bads go back and reflect on how little they did during shinryu. Very few most likely considering that you still see the same mistakes being made on savage content.

[Dualgunner]

Because if this is all they say then the implication is that the issue is only the healer's fault.

Is that the implication, or your interpretation? Assuming the best of hypothetical Tank Man here, there is no implication and it's an explicit "where was the healing?"

[Gallus]

I can honestly refute this, because my main role during stormbloods first month, my main was an AST. When things went south, my heals were rarely a subject, and when they were, I took the criticism and suggestions, and I adjusted to become a better healer. And this was before I joined the raiding scene. Seems to me that giving a player either criticism or suggestions automatically equates to harassment or close to harassment. Tanks and dps can easily be subjected to criticism and suggestions as well.

I explained myself poorly. I meant that if anything goes wrong in a way that it looks like the situation is lacking some healing, people will most likely complain about your healing role. Whether they are right or wrong is a whole different story, but you sort of assumed in your other post that whenever someone complains about you they are going to be right about it.

[Vidu]

If you are playing a healer and anything goes wrong, every single person is going to most likely complain about your healing role. But you are still assuming that the person complaining is right. If it happens however, very often, it is likely you are doing something wrong as a healer; the causes, I don't know, it could be because they are new, have low expectations, play the game occasionally or even have some sort of physical/mental handicap, it could be a lot of things. The "they refuse to learn" line is the easiest one to assume because it gives you automatic permission to go wild on whoever you think is doing something wrong.

You are, again, coming up with a lot of explantions why someone might be struggling - all of them more or less legit, depending on the content ("They're new" isnt legit anymore when you're in The Burn).
Explantions are all fine and dandy, but that still doesnt make it okay for those players to be just outright carried by strangers. When we're talking about group-content, we should expect that everyone in the group is able to contribute to this group-effort in a meanigful way that fits their role. My philosophy is that if someone is struggling with something, that they should disclose that - and by that I dont mean disclosing that they have depression or are playing with their feet, but to inform your party that you might not be able to meet the baseline expectations and ask them if they're okay with that.
Also: if you know that you're struggling for whatever reason, you shouldnt pick a vital role like healer or tank.

I also found that often people dont "refuse to learn", but are not aware that they even need to, thanks to the bad feedback-system the game has.
If a healer isnt healing me enough I can spam clemency on myself, the DPS and in very disturbing cases, the healer to keep us all alive. The healer did a shitty job, regardless of that, we cleared the boss and the healer leaves thinking "Well, I must have done a good job here, no one died!" when in realtiy they did such a poor job that I sacrificed my strongest DPS-skill in order to heal through.

Regardless of your personal circumstances: Its your personal responsibility to go into group-content prepared and able to perform well (enough) within realistic, basic gameplay-expectations. And unless you show that despite your shortcoming you respect your team and the time other people put into this dungeon (for example by leaving a quick "Hey, I'm new to this dungeon/job! Might mess up, but giving my best!"), I dont care about your circumstances. If you just expect me to pick up your slack and show me that you dont care for your team - why should the team care for you?
I shouldnt have to guess which of the 500 possible explantions fit you if you're playing subpar. And I dont want to go around and assume that everyone who havent figured out their rotation at level 70 is mentally challenged or plays only with their nose because they broke both arms and legs.

[Gallus]

It’s 3 question marks and they’re calling out the healer who is in charge of healing the party along with their cohealer. No amount of crying and yelling “harrassment” will change that they do have a responsibility when in any raid. In the end, the other players could easily not say anything and just kick you for being a bad healer who is too busy making mistakes. No one has any obligations to teach you how to play your class on their own time, especially not in a clear/farm party.

I'm talking more specifically in the context of a random dungeon with random people. In the context of a PF with certain requirements, you are on your complete right to kick someone if you think they are not pulling their weight. I still think you can do it politely though.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If you have nothing to do with toxic people, I don't see how you should be offended by what you quoted. I present it as a problem because toxic people are a reality nowadays, if you don't consider toxic yourself there's no reason why you should be alluded by anything I've said.

There you go again, backpedaling. This is the same nonsense excuse used in Tumblr/SJW circles. A person doesn't need to be personally offended to point out the blatant hypocrisy of a generalization. If you don't want people potentially taking offense, don't insult an entire community because you dislike a couple raiders. It would be no less ignorant and foolhardy of me to say "Casuals suck at the game."

I've been calm in all my posts. I still condemn what I think is a problem and something that I think hurts more than helps. That's my stance. It's not called presenting an opinion as a fact. It's called having a different opinion than yours. You seem to be the one a bit more altered judging by your increasingly contemptuous tone every time you give an answer.

When you make remarks like "You're allowed to be polite," this is you deeming yourself the authority of what is and isn't polite. Your personal values and qualifies are not universal. What you deem impolite or "toxic," others won't. If it were merely an opinion, you wouldn't keep insisting your idea of harassment is harassment. As for myself, I'm quite amused. I just happen to point more fun whenever I feel someone is being disingenuous.

Which means you've come here to discuss about an anecdote, sounds realistic.

No less so than made up generalizations.