Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[gamepob]

How many times do you, experienced raiders, who can tell who is performing up to your expectations and who's not, praise or congratulate a player for a job well done? Someone who you see is new to the content but did good? And I don't mean "good tanking" or "good healing" at the end, but personal, direct praise to a certain player?
I am guessing all the time.

[supaiku]

The standard in raids should be that people are able to perform at a certain level, a level where they are at least able to perform their rotation and know mechanics unless they are new. Mistakes happen, especially if the content is new, that's not the problem. But if I raid and use pf and get a Bard that doesn't use songs even after I politely advise him to do so, then something is going wrong. Right now the standard is, people can play as bad as they want because we don't pay their sub. And I couldn't care less how these people play in dungeons etc. But the moment someone joins a fight with an enrage timer they should at least try their best and not start crying if someone calls them bad, that isn't an insult, its the truth. But I agree that giving advice should be given in a somewhat friendly way.

[RoyalBeef]

Imo people are too quick too judge.

Example: I was C on Suza fight. Especially P1 is autopilot for me, so I rarely pay attention to the marker's letters anymore. However when I positioned myself getting ready for the feathers to spawn, I somehow messed up my camera movement without noticing it. So while everything looked as it always does, I was focussing B instead of C without realizing. We made it through P! with a few deaths bc of that and decided to wipe it. Of coure you immediatelyhave someone going "This group is trolling, this is not a farm party, learn the fight." Because mistakes never happen, right? Once you know a fight there is 0 chance anything will ever go wrong, because brains never derp and people just never make mistakes, ever. Jesus fkn Christ.

[Legion88]

Imo people are too quick too judge.

Example: I was C on Suza fight. Especially P1 is autopilot for me, so I rarely pay attention to the marker's letters anymore. However when I positioned myself getting ready for the feathers to spawn, I somehow messed up my camera movement without noticing it. So while everything looked as it always does, I was focussing B instead of C without realizing. We made it through P! with a few deaths bc of that and decided to wipe it. Of coure you immediatelyhave someone going "This group is trolling, this is not a farm party, learn the fight." Because mistakes never happen, right? Once you know a fight there is 0 chance anything will ever go wrong, because brains never derp and people just never make mistakes, ever. Jesus fkn Christ.

I don't think so.
In my experience people start to nagging after some wipes, some, not just one and not after the first pull.
Your example is cute but i could give you multiple example from myself in which i kicked people from my clear and farm PFs according to a 3 Strike rule, 1 strike for every failure i register, not including follwing errors.
And surprisingly there are people who can gather 3 strikes in one pull.

[gamepob]

This thread is becoming more and more like a dialog in a dungeon where two are arguing about some perceived insult. Wheather it is because someone is insulted as a result of someone else "underperforming" or someone is insulted as a result of someone else giving them "advice". So, is this how giving/receiving an advice is supposed to go?

[RoyalBeef]

It depends imo. I'm super confident bc I don't mess up colours on Suza Ex in 99.99% of all runs anymore. However IF it happens for whatever reason, it can completely throw me off, leading to follow up fk ups while I try to get my rotation back up asap, or suddenly overthinking when colours come up again and thus fking it up again. I don't know if it's just me or a general thing, but especially in that fight I either have flawless runs or horrible runs, where once something goes wrong everything seems to go wrong bc it got into my head.
Having such a run doesn't make me bad imo, but I usually realize I should probably take a break and recover anyway so I usually apologize and call it quits. You can see the best athletes beak down sometime's because their opponent got into their head with some mind game, and they just fk things up completely. It depends on how much pessure a person can take so it varies, someone else might recover faster. And yes a struggling person is useless in that party, but that doesn't make them a bad player. we all have those days. I think it's common sense to be self aware tho and take a break/do something else when you're on such a streak.

So if the bad run is all a person ever saw of me, they can tell me that run was shit, and I will agree. However if they want to tell me that this one messed up snapshot enables them to call me a bad player in general, I disagree.

[Vidu]

So if the bad run is all a person ever saw of me, they can tell me that run was shit, and I will agree. However if they want to tell me that this one messed up snapshot enables them to call me a bad player in general, I disagree.

I both agree and disagree with you to an extend - I very much agree what you said about your situation. Mistakes happen, we should all be aware of that, things can distract you (I once wiped a Titan EX-party because I had a 30second long sneeze attack during hayfever season, everyone actually laughed about that) and so on.
Actually noticing that yourself and excusing yourself from the party is the right thing to do here and I believe it will leave a more positive impression overall than a negative one. You're showing/telling the group "I actually know better, today is just not my day". I would expect everyone being able to relate to that.

On the other hand, and thats probably not what you described anymore, but to make this a broader statment: Lets say, someone messes up mechanics in Suzaku EX, while also messing up basic job-functions. Like a RDM hardcasting, a bard not using songs/dots (and yes, I've seen that far to often in Ex-primals partys by now), a tank using all cooldowns at once, a healer not casting a single dps-skill even with enough downtime... all those things that are basic, underlying mechanics that should be reasonably expected from someone at level 70, specially when trying their hands on an Ex-primal. In those cases a snapshot can very well enable someone to "judge" that person fairly.
Sure, even then, you can argue that someone can missclick or forget their song once, because they're distracted, but if it happens frequently over the duration of the fight, excusing it as "accident" doesnt really work anymore and shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding and skill.

Again: The second case is probably not the case for you and I want to express again that I dont mean to imply that!
I just wanted to point out that
...yes, judging a players skill only based on the encounter specific mechanics might not be enterily accurate.
...but during that encounter you'll also see them playing their job and you can judge their skill on that.

You can be both bad at Suzaku EX and your job - or simply be bad at Suzaku EX (in that specific moment - either because you dont know the fight or because your cat just jumped into your lap).
And a good player will notice the difference and react accordingly, if at all.

Edit:
I would consider three "stages" of "being bad" right now:
1) Being bad at a specific fight (but capable of playing your job and reading mechanics in general) - easy, you're just in need of more practise, stay out of partys that dont match your skill-level, like farm-partys and depending on your knowledge maybe clear/kill-parties.
2) Being bad at your job - this is where it gets difficult, because this will show in all content and after a certain point (for me personally thats around Brayflox, but at least level 50 and definitly level 70) its not acceptable anymore if you cant perform your basic job-functiony. I dont care how you fix, but until you know how to play your job, you should stay out of (endgame)-group-content (with strangers). Dummies, playing with friends, running Sastasha again... dont care.
3) being bad in general - by that I mainly mean someones attitude. Anyone in category 1 or 2 can save themself in my book by displaying a good atittude, which involves taking (polite) advice, asking for advice, informing the group of any struggles or about them being new, apologising for mistakes... but if someone pulls the "I play how I want, you dont pay my sub!"-card, I'd label them as "bad in general, not worth bothering with"... and kick them.

[RoyalBeef]

I both agree and disagree with you to an extend - I very much agree what you said about your situation. Mistakes happen, we should all be aware of that, things can distract you (I once wiped a Titan EX-party because I had a 30second long sneeze attack during hayfever season, everyone actually laughed about that) and so on.
Actually noticing that yourself and excusing yourself from the party is the right thing to do here and I believe it will leave a more positive impression overall than a negative one. You're showing/telling the group "I actually know better, today is just not my day". I would expect everyone being able to relate to that.

On the other hand, and thats probably not what you described anymore, but to make this a broader statment: Lets say, someone messes up mechanics in Suzaku EX, while also messing up basic job-functions. Like a RDM hardcasting, a bard not using songs/dots (and yes, I've seen that far to often in Ex-primals partys by now), a tank using all cooldowns at once, a healer not casting a single dps-skill even with enough downtime... all those things that are basic, underlying mechanics that should be reasonably expected from someone at level 70, specially when trying their hands on an Ex-primal. In those cases a snapshot can very well enable someone to "judge" that person fairly.
Sure, even then, you can argue that someone can missclick or forget their song once, because they're distracted, but if it happens frequently over the duration of the fight, excusing it as "accident" doesnt really work anymore and shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding and skill.

Again: The second case is probably not the case for you and I want to express again that I dont mean to imply that!
I just wanted to point out that
...yes, judging a players skill only based on the encounter specific mechanics might not be enterily accurate.
...but during that encounter you'll also see them playing their job and you can judge their skill on that.

You can be both bad at Suzaku EX and your job - or simply be bad at Suzaku EX (in that specific moment - either because you dont know the fight or because your cat just jumped into your lap).
And a good player will notice the difference and react accordingly, if at all.

Yeah I agree. I focused solely on the mechanic aspects of the fight and not on class mastery of the player, which indeed can give a way better impression of general player skill.

[KaivaC]

I am always for experiments so I would be very interested in the results. But in order to be "objective", you could try 3 different types of wording this. First one is exactly how Bourne said, second is the same without sarcasm, and third is "learn to play White Mage!!!!". Please, let us know how it goes.

Of course. Please look forward to it

[KaivaC]

There is a difference between what you consider to be bad personal performance and what is generally considered garbage. A random pug isn't going to know how you evaluate yourself. If you play several classes they might not even know if your nin is your main, or if that character is your main. The most they can do is look up a log and make a judgement call based on that.

It's good that you want to improve but don't mix up self evaluation with general evaluation.



Because you appeared to use an incorrect view on 5k dps as a way to support your argument about elitists not being as common as some may say. It's a bit like an average sized person saying finding well-fitted clothing isn't a problem while claiming that their average height is super short.

I assume most people here can tell that my 5k is garbage. That is what I have always assumed - if I'm pulling grey parses, I'm a trash raider. Regardless, i misspoke about something. . Like I said, I tend to not be explicitly clear with initial postings on this forum. One look at a nin log can tell you that ninjas should be hitting in the area of 6 to 6.2k. My argument still stands that they're not as common as this forum makes it seem in my personal experience.