How can we get more in depth character customization?

[MageBlack]

I didn't like it enough to comment on it. While I relish the idea of being able to play a PLD as a DPS, I don't think it does enough as far as 'customization' goes, because even then all PLD DPS will play the same at that point.

Fair enough. I guess it would just be a new job added in so not real customization. Like for a PLD DPS job a Knight might work, would use sword and board but as offense instead of defense. I honestly cant think of much that would provide customization without overhauling all jobs and reballance all instances and like hell they are going to do that. Great discussions in here though!

[TheMightyMollusk]

Not to be controversial, but can anyone familiar with WoW explain how they manage class customization yet the same would not work in FFXIV? Or do WoW players push meta and all run the same specs anyway? Are the dungeons/encounters very different than FFXIV so that is why it works? I hear these two games compared constantly and wondered if I might have some perspective as to why FFXIV is so limited when apparently every other MMO has more class diversity.

WoW managed it eventually by vastly oversimplifying the talent trees.

Originally you got one point per level (starting at level 10) and had longer trees with varying skills, and you could freely put points into any of your class's three trees as long as you were high enough level to unlock it (and had any prerequisite talents unlocked already). However, this led to cookie cutter builds for each spec, and a lot of talents that were functionally useless. And cross-spec talents weren't always useful, because you'd still have to invest most of your points in your main spec to get the most out of it.

The trees got pruned in Cataclysm, and then later (I want to say in Mists of Pandaria, but I could be wrong) simplified again to just give you most of your chosen spec's main stuff right at level 10 and only have a few abilities to choose from every ten to fifteen levels. Which still led to a lot of cookie cutter builds, because a lot of those skills are still highly situational or redundant.

Even hunter pets got massively simplified. Pets used to have their own talent trees, and each family had their own special skills, with a few overlaps. Then they lost the talents, and each of the three pet specs shared their skills, with exotic pets usually having an extra (since exotics were only usable by beast master hunters, they got the extra perk), but losing a lot of the unique skills in the bargain. Really crippled my beloved devilsaur. (This is also ignoring quality of life changes to pets, such as having to feed them or level them up.)

So basically, they didn't manage it. They tried, it didn't really work out, so they backpedaled on it a few times and eventually more or less gave up. They try again every so often, such as Legion's artifact weapons with their own skill unlocks, but it just leads to more of the same.

[MageBlack]

Maybe I'm better off just waiting for the next FF MMO?

[Enkidoh]

Maybe I'm better off just waiting for the next FF MMO?

Probably, SE has pretty much written off the 'multiple Jobs/roles branching off one class' experiment as a failure, so you're not going to see a repeat of ACN splitting into SMN and SCH with any other class branching into multiple Job roles.

As it is I strongly suspect that Yoshi is considering removing SCH from ACN completely and making it it's own independent Job (it's already shown as independent of ACN in the list of classes in the player search window, and most weapons SCH uses are unique to SCH only, despite still being listed as 'Arcanist Grimoiries').

[Shurrikhan]

Some great comments but I'm seeing a common criticism that I wanted to bring up.

Yeah, I know more options doesnt actually mean "more options" because of the hive mind MMO players, or gamers in general, seem to gravitate towards. I see more options as no better or worse than having an in-game parser BUT I did present several different ways of getting a similar result. Almost all of you only commented on the most complicated one that would require a hard reset on a lot of the current game mechanics, That would be something only feasible if we had another calamity and had a realm reborn reborn!

There were two different styles I brought up that could work in the current systems like the split class/job/role they did with Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar. I know the devs whined that it was too much work but I could see this FFXIV's version of a talent tree, a job stone for that weapon which gives you a different role/playstyle. A change like that would only happen in increments though unless it was the whole focus of an entire expansion and I'm also aware that, even if they started working on it today, we wouldnt see it until maybe 7.0

So aside from the excuses presented by the devs, what would you guys think of that as a customization solution?

It certainly seems a more sensible avenue into customization, if such is ever necessary. I personally see Monk and Dancer as almost equally tied to the Pugilist school of combat, for instance, but, we could also go further by, say, allowing cross-class in a real capacity again, such that Dancer could choose to build more off Pugilist, Lancer, Rogue, or Conjurer.

Even believing as I do that customization is fundamentally reductive, I still think such a system would be worthwhile just for the immersion it could bring... provided it came with the appropriate mutations to support it.

But, customization will always be an RPG element to me. Outside of the 4-skill restriction of MOBAs, it merely cuts down what would have allowed simultaneously and fluidly available variety of play into a variety of menu selections and fewer actual gameplay choices. I like it my RPGs, but... XIV can scarcely be called one, if at all.

[Sylvina]

It sucks but they do it to make the game easier to balance. while it is not impossible to balance a game with many options and builds, it is FAR more difficult and SE seems to have made the decision to play it safe and sacrifice build options in favor of easy class balance.

[Ruinfeild]

Responses in bold. Maybe I might do it this way more often..

Sorry, was going ham on leveling an alt so got distracted. Now keep in my that this is all agree to disagree on this stuff.

1.) That is more of a mindset I believe someone said between JP and NA players. NA players are all about 'faster DPS, take things down faster, that is all that matters' while JP from what I heard was the other side of it. For me, getting more DPS as a tank was pointless and made little sense even if the healers could keep me alive cause that wasn't the role I am playing. I am there to survive hits and make it easier on the healers and if both tanks did that and went down, chances are it is a wipe. People in NA may not like it but get used to the fact that tanks are just that, tanks.

As for before the change, I never once went the same route as other tanks and stacked STR gear (I was playing with friends of course) and we did encounters just fine (other friend did it half-ass). The change had little to do with 'complaining or confusing' I believe and just made the smart choice of not forcing tanks to choose between either stat and get expelled from raids from people just because they didn't follow the meta.

2.) I assume you mean that the spells were upgraded as you leveled so you didn't have to deal with multiple of the same spell on ya bar (such as I got miasma 1 on my bar and that is upgraded and replaces the lesser spell automatically) which is the same thing WoW does. I want a source on this complaint because the only one I can think of is button bloat so again, they made a good choice since they promised I believe before SB came out to help deal with button bloat (which only got worse).

As for cleric stance, that I really want a source since you seem pretty clear on saying the players complaining about this and that (which I doubt you speak for the entire player base). The only complaint I did ever hear about cleric stance was when a healer accidentally kept it on while healing. It would be noticed, laughs would be had, cleric stance would be turned off and things would continue.

3.) Vaguely recall using accuracy materia now that I look back on ARR but not sure if I ever hit the cap. I got close for sure but still had no trouble keeping aggro due to the rotations. A few misses wasn't going to destroy the entire run. I was still able to get aggro from the off tank and hold it rather easily unless bad luck happened.

4.) I tried PvP a day or so ago on my alt (just hit 59 but tried it at 57 cause dem glamours) and it felt fine to me?

[Sylvina]

I love how tanks can and are expected to put out a certain amount of dps. Roles need not be so narrowly defined. DPS is how the boss dies EVER. if there is no dps, as in damage, the boss sits at 100% HP until enrage. therefore dps is the job of EVERYONE, but DPS are expected to do more than others.

[Sylvina]

Where as, what I proposed would change the conditions to win. Instead of "Deal x damage to win", a survival fight would be 8 Minutes long, no matter how much damage you deal. If you get to the end, you win. However, fight mechanics would be dedicated to straining your tanks and Healers

I've played a game which had fights which lasted a certain period of time no matter what. players HATED it becuase you were not rewarded for being good at it with a shorter fight. there's no room for personal optimization since the fight will ALWAYS be a certain time, so theres no incentive to do more than the bare minimum required.

[Elleia]

4.) I tried PvP a day or so ago on my alt (just hit 59 but tried it at 57 cause dem glamours) and it felt fine to me?

You never tried the older system then, I take it? PvP used to have all the same skills as PvE (certain ones worked a bit differently/some effects were changed), along with some additional PvP only skills you could choose from. There was quite a large skill gap in players who could use their kits to the fullest extent and those who would press a few buttons, perhaps not understanding the class to its fullest. It was good fun to figure out your PvP rotation and burst to improve yourself each match. Then with SB they pruned PvP greatly - a handful of skills for each class, with "auto combos" so that it's really difficult to screw up. Many people prefer to old system and feel that the new PvP has been dumbed down to the point of being unfun.