How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Daibunnie]

No one is talking about doing it mid fight. This game gives you no real indication that your about to hit a major wall. Up until that moment you have been led to believe that you have been doing fine. so you unlock hit que up in df or join a learning party and you get smashed and you have no idea what your doing wrong. And a player dawns it on you that you've been terrible the entire time you've been playing this game wrong that entire time you thought you were winning.

There is no real indication that this stuff your about to do is the hardest in this game. Most of those games for their hardest modes have a little description something like "you will not survive" "For players looking for the most brutal experience" things like that and that option is before you even start the game not when you've hit max level.

Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

[thegreatonemal]

Shinryu isn’t a major wall now? Despite the countless numbers of sprout players dying multiple times during the trial? Even the 4.4 msq has multiple people having to retry with an echo buff.

You’re right that there isn’t any real indication of whether a player is doing decent or not because they end up getting carried by the other 7/23 players. However, if you end up dying mutliple times in the same instance, that should be an indication that maybe you’re not ready for the content past this. Also, the content is called hard/extreme/savage/ultimate for a reason with a high ilvl usually.

True, the devs need to do a better job of indicating and teaching people how to play the game so at least the opener because that sets you up for the rest of any encounter. Players shouldn't have to direct slower/weaker plays to a discord. as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

[Aerlana]

as for the topic of this thread parsers simply aren't the answer here.

I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...

[KaldeaSahaline]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

I fundamentally disagree. It's human nature to not want your negative business to be in the spotlight (this thread proves that). If you put people in the spotlight they'll generally do what they're supposed to. If that means picking up the slack, etc.

That's exactly what a parser would do. It wouldn't do it for everybody, but I'm absolutely confident just based on human nature alone it'd have a positive effect on player skill. Nobody wants be the CONSTANT blame, so they'll try and fix it.

As I said before I played WoW before and after parsers were common in the game. The amount of bad players didn't noticeably decrease. But the speed in weeding them out and kicking them did.

Actually - I'll see if I can find it for you, but I very firmly remember WoW Devs citing that their data has shown players have gotten better over the years. They attributed it to addons and community theorycrafting. Which includes parsers.

Not only that, but my anecdotal data directly contradicts yours. I have noticed considerably better players over the years, compared to the old days. Something Miste's anecdotes also corroborate. I've been playing WoW since 2004 and FF14 since ARR.

Quite honestly, before this? I was going to give up and assume 2.5-2.75k is the 'average' Not 3k, so at least that error was avoided.

2.8K is what I did in i316 gear on my First O1S kill. In dungeons I think I average about 3k on a single continuous parse in i363.

You could take a look at WoW and see if the general playerbase is noticeably better than FFXIV's. You'll find it's not, despite the fact that the game has had parser add-ons for over a decade. The biggest difference is the frequency of parser related drama and the amount of kicks that occur.

IMHO - the playerbase in WoW is considerably better than the average playerbase in FF14. In FF14 At least 30% of the time my party members have a player who is near dead weight doing the same DPS I did an expansion ago. In WoW? Maybe 5% of the time, and that's stretching it.

You're right though the biggest difference being there are a lot more parser related harassment and kicks in FF14 because it's hidden and not wide open for everyone to see.

I'll find it is not? Are you sure? I think you made the incorrect assumption that I have not played WoW (I've played all expacs since BC). You also seem to think that your experience is the only point of view that exists and what you experienced must be what everyone else will experience too. A singular brush stroke does not make you see the entire painting.

This is anecdotal, but if you want my opinion on my experiences in WoW....

In my experience WoW's average player skill is higher than FFXIV, but this is just my experience so I can't use such a thing to claim the parser did that or not. No one has the proper data to make a determination on that except Blizzard.

In my experience there was not a higher frequency of parser related drama or kicks.

My experience echoes yours.

[Penthea]

I'll see if I can find it for you, but I very firmly remember WoW Devs citing that their data has shown players have gotten better over the years. They attributed it to addons and community theorycrafting. Which includes parsers.

I would take that with a grain of salt considering there are add-ons that are designed to help you with your rotation. One called something like Spell Flash lit up the abilities you should be pressing. And no it isn't like FFXIV's combo system. It lit up absolutely everything in the rotation including major cds. Of course it is no replacement for personal class knowledge but the point is those add-ons are a crutch that can make players appear far more skilled than they actually are.

There are also add-ons that have trivialised some boss mechanics. For example Shadow Lord Iskar has a mechanic in which you had to pass around an object called "The Eye of Anzu" which required a great deal of coordination and situational awareness...unless you had the Shadow Lord Iskar Assist add-on which made the fight tremendously easier to do. Again, an add-on making players appear better than they actually are.

[Aerlana]

*snip*

the addon for eye of anzu was a way to laugh other people. But yes, some couldnt even kill anzu without it. Proof some are bad.
Also, numerous people were unable clearly to kill titan hard/extrem if someone wasnt saying each skill titan will use, one after other...


Also for this i dont want to say "better or worst". And other thing : When we say parsers will improve playstyle. it will do it for those who WANTS improve themselves. Large part of people, really large part doesnt want to always improve themselves (or not improve enough to get the need to some details informations), and so, you can give them as much tool as you want, they wont improve.
But, in most content, we dont care. I really dont care that my daily dongeon does 35 or 40 minutes instead of 30 (and to be honest, the raging one about this are ot only the top level players ... )
When i did the raid with "eye of anzu" i didnt have the addon, most had, and did my work well without, and they did with. but when i watched their "armory" page (like lodestone for characters) i saw that they were clearly not the kind of player wanting to improve. more the kind to click "easy" on the begining of a new game. their choice... Also the kind of people in WoW that come on forum saying "game is too easy" and didnt even go on heroic mode (and evne less mythic where the real difficulty is)

and yes, difficulty of WoW did improve... iskar you point, even with all in the raid having this addon stayed harder than nefarian. easily was as hard as twins emperor or C'thun... Iskar was just a boss in the 2nd part of the raid. when you killed him and 4 other, it opened this access to mannoroth and then, finally the last boss. C'thun, or Nefarian were the hardest boss in their own raid...

But you speak about the wow comunity as a whole, when we speak about parsers only considering "people wanting to improve" (because, watching parser or any other hint, they consider themselves quite bad, and should improve). WoW comunity it is also some people whining because some dongeons are not in the Duty Finder, SO have to get a team in the party finder, with a slitly harder dongeon to do. And consider the people they will party with as toxic brainless parser addict. FFXIV comunity like WoW comunity is not "only one kind of people" some dont care about PvE content, doing only old one to get skins, and then, go roleplay. other dont do anything else than PvP. some tryhard the most difficult content (savage/ultimate/mythic raid / M+ dongeon) And some (like me) stays on "casual" content (heroic raid / Xtrem primals / first/second savage bosses). The "only roleplay" dont care his DPS. the PvP guy will not only think DPS, but also to survive, more crowdcontroll etc etc. When we speak about improvement due to parser it is, at least people like me, wanting to perform a little in content.


Parser improve the playstyle of the people wanting to clearly improve it. The others, if they dont want, no tool, no tutorial, no guide can make them improve.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level)

[Penthea]

the addon for eye of anzu was a way to laugh other people. But yes, some couldnt even kill anzu without it. Proof some are bad.
Also, numerous people were unable clearly to kill titan hard/extrem if someone wasnt saying each skill titan will use, one after other...

Oh trust me I know, I was raiding with a guild that at the time had some individuals that couldn't handle some mechanics no matter how much handholding add-ons gave them. It was depressingly hilarious to watch.

Also for this i dont want to say "better or worst". And other thing : When we say parsers will improve playstyle. it will do it for those who WANTS improve themselves. Large part of people, really large part doesnt want to always improve themselves (or not improve enough to get the need to some details informations), and so, you can give them as much tool as you want, they wont improve.

I completely agree. However in WoW I saw people find ways around it. Some played the FOTM class/spec so that they looked decent even if they were not and changed class/spec as soon as the balance reshuffled, they used add-ons that assisted them with their rotations, they would intentionally dps the wrong targets if it them made them look better on the meters and often completely refused to use any utility no matter how helpful it might be because having someone else do so would make their dps go down and they would continue to look okay.

I know that some of these are not applicable to FFXIV given SE's stance on add-ons making them awkward to use and how their use is completely absent for PS4 players. But my point is while parsers encourage people to improve their dps, that doesn't mean everyone is going to actually legitimately improve it.

I guarantee if parsers come to FFXIV issues with people ignoring certain targets will become more common. Some classes are better at aoe than others, some can switch target with less dps loss, some classes don't rely on dots for a huge chunk of their damage so they don't have to worry about things dying to soon making them look bad. All this would become very apparent with an official parser and many people will react to this by gaming the game by choosing what they dps based on the dps they would achieve and not based on doing the encounter efficiently or properly. And then the problem with that is many people only glance at the parser and judge an entire situation based on dps results. Their problem player might be their top dps but they might think about kicking someone else. A more knowledgeable or sensible player would dig more and find the truth but everyone knows that common sense is often a super power in mmos.

Sorry but I don't see how FFXIV would be any different in this manner. There is literally nothing about the community in its current state to suggest that the above would never happen.

But, in most content, we dont care. I really dont care that my daily dongeon does 35 or 40 minutes instead of 30 (and to be honest, the raging one about this are ot only the top level players ... )

You mean people like you don't care. I have seen parser abuse in lvl 30 dungeons in WoW. Some people don't understand that classes aren't designed to be balanced while lvling. And some just want to be jerks.

Also the kind of people in WoW that come on forum saying "game is too easy" and didnt even go on heroic mode (and evne less mythic where the real difficulty is)

This isn't unique to WoW, I have seen this in FFXIV too. It happens more in WoW because a massive amount of the lvling content in that game is a freaking joke, and also (dunno about now) back when I played ilvl sync was not a thing so max lvl dungeons that may have been challenging for the intended ilvl were insultingly easy for people in up to date gear.

and yes, difficulty of WoW did improve... iskar you point, even with all in the raid having this addon stayed harder than nefarian. easily was as hard as twins emperor or C'thun... Iskar was just a boss in the 2nd part of the raid. when you killed him and 4 other, it opened this access to mannoroth and then, finally the last boss. C'thun, or Nefarian were the hardest boss in their own raid...

My point is that Blizzard saying their players got better at the game is a flawed statement because of the tremendous amount of add-ons that you can get that can help you. Some help with your rotation, some literally shout at you if you stand in fire allowing you to pay less attention to the arena, some are designed to trivialise boss mechanics, the list goes on.

But you speak about the wow comunity as a whole, when we speak about parsers only considering "people wanting to improve"

I'm sorry but you should not limit yourself to thinking of one corner of the bigger picture. Parsers will affect the community as a whole. It is very short-sighted to only think of those who would use it for self improvement.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level) (because, watching parser or any other hint, they consider themselves quite bad, and should improve). WoW comunity it is also some people whining because some dongeons are not in the Duty Finder, SO have to get a team in the party finder, with a slitly harder dongeon to do. And consider the people they will party with as toxic brainless parser addict. FFXIV comunity like WoW comunity is not "only one kind of people" some dont care about PvE content, doing only old one to get skins, and then, go roleplay. other dont do anything else than PvP. some tryhard the most difficult content (savage/ultimate/mythic raid / M+ dongeon) And some (like me) stays on "casual" content (heroic raid / Xtrem primals / first/second savage bosses). The "only roleplay" dont care his DPS. the PvP guy will not only think DPS, but also to survive, more crowdcontroll etc etc. When we speak about improvement due to parser it is, at least people like me, wanting to perform a little in content.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this paragraph. It appears that you think the WoW and FFXIV have a lot more in common than some people realise.

You want to compare wow to FF. lets focus on the same kind of people on both game. (And when i do it, i am clearly unable to give an answer, the game get so much difference to being able to compare players' level)

It would be more accurate to say that WoW is a warning sign for how parsers can negatively affect a game. Just because a tool is useful doesn't mean it can't or won't be abused.

I'm not anti-parser. I'm anti-idiot and anti-jerk.

I don't fancy the idea of handing parsers to idiots and jerks because I have seen what they do when they have them. They don't only bicker among themselves. They bring everyone down with them whether it's inciting needless arguments, falsely accusing people of poor performance, intentionally dps the wrong targets or waste people's time by halting progression with their antics. It is not coddling to want to avoid people who don't know how to or don't want to use a tool properly. If that is coddling then you may as well say the same for people who want to avoid those who don't know how to or don't want to use their classes properly.

[thegreatonemal]

I didnt see anyone saying parser was the answer for this... except you.
No one went about the basic tutorial matters... except you...

Parsers is a tool to improve and get always a better play...


the question there is "what are toxicity" you said harassment (even official parser, harassment have to be ban) other says more kick (maybe yes, but when you lie about performance or are too weak for the content, kick is intended, parser just shows fact)
On the other side people says how parsers can have good uses, mainly in end game content (extrem trial and after) and you, there complain about tutorial...

Someone hasn't been here for most of the discussion.