How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[KaldeaSahaline]

What excluding people based on a few results in a third party website that doesn't even need you to sign up to it, your all just proving to me the worst of what I think of this games raiding player base.

Ironically enough - comments like this are exactly why pro-parser players think people like you are toxic.

There were strategy guides for FF7 as well.

I actually have that one!

So the question is: How can this be a learning tool, when there seems to be nothing to compare the evidence with? Say for example, we get an official parsing tool...that's neat, but how is one going to know they are doing good or bad?

A parser isn't a turn on and instantly improve endeavor. It's something you look at and compare decisions you've made over time.

If you see an outlier (like one time I had a WHM who was top DPS in a dungeon) you look into it. In this situation the WHM wasn't the outlier, he was just a very strong player. The outliers were my 2 DPS who sustained near auto attack levels of output. The healer and I (PLD) carried them, and it was offensive to us that we had to. Between the 2 of us we sustained nearly 60% of the total groups damage. That means 2 DPS only carried 40% of the total damage done.

You go into a 24 man and see another DRG and he's doing double your damage. You can say oh it's just gear, but when you look he's only 5 ilvl higher. Then you say, why did he do so much, then look at his casts compare to yours. Then look at his sequence if you're interested, etc.

To be fair you can easily catch a lot of stuff like that just from watching the players and your ui.

This isn't as easy as you say, especially from a melee or a progression perspective. I have to have animations turned off for party members. I can't see a damn thing up there. I don't care about seeing a BLM's Enochian so that's disabled too. I only care about the things I need to care about. I don't know the first thing about a MCH, so his animations aren't going to mean a damn thing to me. However, his 1600 DPS in 01S without dying? That means he's getting kicked.

Also if you actually have the time to watch other players it's because you're not putting max effort in or you're just a considerably better player than I.

Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation.

As someone who was actually there live for the PLD shield spam. The only reason I actually noticed (and I'm a fairly accomplished PLD main mind you) was because aggro was beyond errant. I had to literally stop DPSing and look at what the tank was doing to see it.

So while an official parcer in the game would undoubtably be a good 'learning tool.' It would be only for current content. The moment it becomes outdated content, no one cares anymore. While that may be useful for the modern raider, or for someone that is level 70 looking to get in to raiding...it's not useful at all for the person currently leveling. He gets to look at his dps in Say...Void Ark, and just assume it is good at this point in time, or go with what appearantly is being suggested, and not care until it is relevant...at level 70.

Seems to me if you want to advocate using a parser as an official learning tool...it should be useful for all levels not just current savage or extremes. Granted, I'm sure only the elitest of the elite care what dps output is at level 45, but I'd say by Alexander Savage - and the iLevel there about - having benchmarks that say 'alright, in around this iLevel area, 'x' job should be pushing around 3,000dps.' This way you are knowing whether or not the best you can be at that iLevel rather than just hoping you are doing it right, and checking when you are 70.

A parser is useful at all levels. The information gleaned from it isn't as useful, but you can still test things with it, and weigh party contributions. For instance, I learned by not using flash leveling up my PLD I increased my average DPS across an entire dungeon by ~20%.

It could very well be that the person in their current gear is pushing the best dps that iLevel offers to them...and that the person is calling them a bad, because they are expecting iLevel 'x' dps, from a person that is wearing iLevel 'y' gear. I know my numbers as well, but I have to assume that the person calling me bad, is right, because even though I can see my own numbers, I have no idea if those are good numbers for my iLevel...absolutely none, because there is no benchmark to compare it too. So now...I get to sit here and wonder...am I missing something? Am I really bad? Or am I doing the best I literally can do, for the gear that I have? And he is comparing me to some unrealistic number that I can't hope to hit yet?

The fact that you are asking those questions is a good thing. That phenomenon is what gets players doing research and getting better. I've seen it on these forums and I've seen it in game countless times. Once the data is in front of them, it really opens their eyes. It's easy to say to someone you're garbage blah blah bad uninstall, but without that player seeing it live the impact is lessened.

I am in no way saying "No parsers cause parser encite trolling." That's not true, I am saying "Parsing will give trolls more fuel." They will troll with or without a parser...this is an agreed upon fact.

And this is where we must correct you. Parsing will not give trolls MORE fuel. It will change their CURRENT fuel.

Once again, people advocating the desire for an official parser are skirting what I am asking: Where are the benchmarks?

I covered this above. Benchmarks can only be gleaned by experience and time. If you're expecting an instant benchmark day 1, you'll be disappointed. It doesn't exist.

*takes deep breaths*

No sir. No you can not.

I can look at buff windows. I can look at downtime on cooldowns. I can look at their used rotation. I can see all that wonderful and juicy detail....

But - and this is the crux of the matter here - the number displayed by the dark knight who is doing O10S on savage? It is no help to a scrub teir dark knight just trying to do his best in mendacity gear. Comparing my i360 self to i380 gods is like bragging about bench pressing 120lbs to a professional bodybuilder.

It is if you care to look, but if you're trying to compare dungeons to raids then yes that's a silly endeavor. You can glean basic rotational info and optimizations, but they're 2 entirely different content forms with entirely different circumstances and flows.

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

The people you claim talking about low dps and not taking things into account are players who aren't using an abacus and are relying on feels. As someone with an abacus I've seen countless times where some uneducated player makes a claim about DPS, when they're CLEARLY and UNMISTAKABLY wrong. I always look at gear when I investigate an outlier.

The main context for performance people often use is their own. They judge other people versus their own performance. This is flawed if you don't take gear into consideration. Someone might look bad compared to you but if they're 15 ilvls lower...then no wonder?

15 ilvls would be immediately noticeable by sheer HP difference. 15 ilvls is a lot.

[jameseoakes]

Ironically enough - comments like this are exactly why pro-parser players think people like you are toxic.

.

Thanks I take that as a compliment.

[KaivaC]

snip

Keep in mind that those were general averages. You can't really see what these players did - that requires a lot more in-depth research, especially when considering that there were raid buffs going out. That being said, if you don't want to compare to raid level tanks, why do you care? Parsing is...well, in casual content, nobody really cares as long as you do your primary job, hold hate, know when to tank stance, and mitigate properly. If you're being yelled at in casual content over tank damage, but you're doing those things I just named - then those players aren't worth listening to, IMHO. You'd be surprised at how many tanks can't hit even 2k in 360 gear. I have to advise that, truth be told, these numbers really don't matter in casual content like dungeons. Maaaayyybeee in current normal raids, if you're wanting to improve.

[Penthea]

Also if you actually have the time to watch other players it's because you're not putting max effort in or you're just a considerably better player than I.

I appreciate the compliment but in truth I don't think it's anything special to be able to spot some things without a parser like bad healers from watching hardcasts in the party ui, bad tanks who do things like use less than half of their kit or spam sheild lob, or seeing something isn't right with the buffs or debuffs displayed in the party and target ui. Especially as a healer I'm in an excellent position to watch what other people are doing...given it's actually part of my job to watch other people anyway.

Maybe no one else very active in this thread mains a healer? I'm always keeping an eye on what my co-healer is doing whether it's watching hardcasts, taking note of hots or buffs or their mana bar, because it actually makes me a better team player to do this. For example if I see they have popped cleric stance, well I'll put in a bit more effort into ensuring they don't need to heal so they can get the full use out of that buff. Or if I spot a hot on someone who needs healing but won't take damage again for a while I'll just do something else and let the hot do its work. If their mana is low then I'll pump out more heals so they don't run dry so quickly. I can see what cds the tanks are using as well and adapt my own actions to that. I also watch the arena so if I see something like someone standing in the wrong spot, I'll shield them to decrease the chances of them dying.

A side effect of watching the above is spotting players who are not playing correctly.

[Daibunnie]

Well that's my point...if you're in the instance you are in the position to witness the shield lob spam. I have come across plds that do this and I didn't need a parser to tell me about it. I simply saw it and proceeded to eyeroll

I am not saying you can spot all signs of bad performance with observational skills. I did say in a previous post that some mistakes are too subtle to catch or that you maybe don't have the time to glance at what others are doing. I'm just trying to dispel this myth that you need a parser to spot anything that is wrong with how someone is using their class.

I don't consider using the party ui or being familiar with spell animations to be able to spot bad players to be extraordinary. Honestly thought that would be common, especially among healers, but apparently it's not. Personal observational skills as well as class knowledge are just more tools, in addition to parsers, to access a situation. I mean the game gives us all these visual effects to tell us what is happening...why not use them if we can?

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party. The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

Most pf parties have a minimum ilvl set so no, gear won't be making that big of a difference as opposed to actual performance. A dps dealing only 4k dps as opposed to another dps of the same class and gear dealing 7k, shows that dps is doing something wrong, and people will check your gear to see if you have proper gear and materia or if you're just not doing that well.

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

Because believe it or not, most people don't want to spend almost an hour of their time to gather people on pf, only to find that someone doesn't have optimal gear, doesn't know their rotation, or doesn't even know the fight and have to abandon because of that very reason.

[Penthea]

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

It turns out we're having two different conversations then. I'm talking about what a person can see in combat. You're talking about trying to find out a player's skill without getting into combat.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party.

So what do you do if you look up a person and there are no logs recorded of their performance? There's always a first time to be logged. Never mind how people can change main class, play a different character, or even take breaks from the game and it may have been several tiers since they last played.

The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

Again for various reasons there may not be logs available for you to view for everyone. What do you when this happens? Refuse to take them on because you can't be sure if they're going to force you to babysit?

And I'm sorry if you think being observant in combat is nonsense as I find it to be immensely useful.

[jameseoakes]

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

I think that is the main point.

[Ameela]

I think that is the main point.

When you're toxic for not wanting to do double the work/take double the time because someone is too lazy to improve :blobsweat:

[Penthea]

I think that is the main point.

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

[jameseoakes]

It is but some people have this funny idea that parsers will noticeably improve the overall skill of players...and well it won't. There is no cure for bad or lazy players. The best thing you can do is get rid of them when you see them play poorly.

The parses make it easier to spot them and then belittle/kick them which is the whole point. This has very little to do with learning tools, hence why I'm toxic for calling out FFlogs being a tool to exclude players, this all has very little to do with players improvement.