How can we get more in depth character customization?

[Ryaz]

Unfortunately, "Illusion of Choice" will strike and make the entire thing completely worthless when theorycrafters math out the best one.

I wish it could be more in depth but, it just wouldn't work here. Not with this community.

Theorycrafters are the bane of fun and interesting.

[Shurrikhan]

@OP

Fundamentally, customization is never additive. It is purely restrictive.

Its only benefits, therefore, occur when the concepts cohesive to a class's identity outnumber the concepts mutually cohesive in gameplay. In this sense, a job of "over-abundant" prospects can be pared down into sensible spins on the same theme, allowing for greater breadth of player attraction to the class than could be achieved by selecting only the best, unrestricted translation of theme to gameplay. This benefit is rarely present except in games with excessive bloat or particularly low confidence in their players' skill levels and a low desired skill requirement from said players.

You can have tremendous depth and breadth without spending time in menus (and just as likely, on forums or guides to dictate your choices to you). Take Enochian for example. Imagine if it could have any of three mechanical bonuses, for Ice, Lightning, or Fire. Like gameplay-replacements such as customization menus, gameplay itself tends towards rigid fight-by-fight min-maxing, but it can still provide distinct gameplay strategies -- ideally distinct also in playflow -- that are within a hair's breadth of each other in output, allowing for multiple ways to play at least as surely as any talent system. Perhaps a certain mechanic receives more advantage from the draw-in or repulsion side-benefits of Thundercaller (Lightning-Enochian), and so it sees frequent use starting just before that mechanic, but unless prepared for appropriately off of either an earlier use of the same or a well-timed build off of Flamespeaker (Fire-Enochian) or Breath of Winter (Ice-Enochian), it stands as a compromise. Ideal gameplay allows for constant improvement, revision, and experimentation between macrorotational elements that feel distinct from each other as to add breadth to the class's experience without forcing every aspect upon the player (who may rather avoid certain mechanics' use, especially while still learning). Learning one's job should be a less an improvement to sustained or theoretical damage, which should allow for multiple ways to "play" the job, and much more a fight-by-fight nuanced mastery by which you can adapt to any situation (breadth of toolkit).

[Reynhart]

Unfortunately, "Illusion of Choice" will strike and make the entire thing completely worthless when theorycrafters math out the best one.

No, the problem is within the game itself that any content can be beaten the most efficiently by the same "best" setup...or, worse, than even if different content required different setup, the game probably would allow you to change it instantly at no cost at all so that you wouldn't even have to weigh your choices.

I remember putting points into dexterity as PLD because I thought it'd make my shield block more often.

It used too, in ARR, but since SE don't want things to be too hard, the drawback of blocking less was non existant, so...MOAR DEEPS !

[KaldeaSahaline]

We can't.

Not because there aren't ways, but because the game systems and encounter design don't support it.

Unless they drastically overhaul that I see no way we can have meaningful character customization (gameplay wise). I've posited numerous times on here about a Materia system where you socketed effects into gear. Each job would have dozens of Materia that impacted various skills in different ways. But the thing is, having all these cool modifiers on abilities is useless if the encounters never utilize them.

Here's a post I made a while back:

Materia should be a gameplay changing system. Yeah I know people will say math this, math that, but you can design it to work, it's just challenging.

Honestly, I'd rather see the devs make jobs have more specific niches, and let Materia be a system to fill gaps in the kit for various content forms, while simultaneously improving chosen aspects.

For PLD:

Here are some examples of how Materia could impact the PLD's Shield Lob skill:
Hit additional targets (if X number are hit do Y effect).
Hit a target past X yalm - allow combo ender/oGCD to be used for free
Increase move speed after hitting target (for on demand burst mobility)
Enemies hit are pulled towards you

Then you assign different colored materia to effects and have different gear come with different number and colors of sockets. For instance maybe throughput effects are considered Red materia so you're limited to how many you can have.

The idea would be that you could socket different materia for different effects and they'd even synergize with each other.

Like you could equip the materia that enables the oGCD/combo ender if further than X yalm, and the one that pulls towards you and boom you have a shield lob that has 2 new effects on that work in tandem.

This is just 4 different mechanics for one specific ability for one specific job. The problem is that if these tools are never needed because situations in combat never arise requiring them then it's useless (and that's the current system we have today).

[odintius]

It one of the reasons I do story stuff then go play another mmo, because honestly I don't even consider this a mmo. I'll take that illusion of choice over what we currently have any day although as mention to much of a overhaul needed and doubt that will change.

[Lunalepsy]

Again, horizontal mentality needs to come back. They need to understand this is a Final Fantasy game.

[Ameela]

Again, horizontal mentality needs to come back. They need to understand this is a Final Fantasy game.

And Final Fantasy has had horizontal gear progression since... when, exactly? By the end of each game I tend to have all the characters in the best possible equipment I can get my hands on, aka the one with the highest stats... and that's if the game even HAS equipment considering a lot of the games also limit you to changing your weapon and accessory only.

[MageBlack]

Some great comments but I'm seeing a common criticism that I wanted to bring up.

Yeah, I know more options doesnt actually mean "more options" because of the hive mind MMO players, or gamers in general, seem to gravitate towards. I see more options as no better or worse than having an in-game parser BUT I did present several different ways of getting a similar result. Almost all of you only commented on the most complicated one that would require a hard reset on a lot of the current game mechanics, That would be something only feasible if we had another calamity and had a realm reborn reborn!

There were two different styles I brought up that could work in the current systems like the split class/job/role they did with Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar. I know the devs whined that it was too much work but I could see this FFXIV's version of a talent tree, a job stone for that weapon which gives you a different role/playstyle. A change like that would only happen in increments though unless it was the whole focus of an entire expansion and I'm also aware that, even if they started working on it today, we wouldnt see it until maybe 7.0

So aside from the excuses presented by the devs, what would you guys think of that as a customization solution?

[Bahati]

Not to be controversial, but can anyone familiar with WoW explain how they manage class customization yet the same would not work in FFXIV? Or do WoW players push meta and all run the same specs anyway? Are the dungeons/encounters very different than FFXIV so that is why it works? I hear these two games compared constantly and wondered if I might have some perspective as to why FFXIV is so limited when apparently every other MMO has more class diversity.

[MageBlack]

And Final Fantasy has had horizontal gear progression since... when, exactly? By the end of each game I tend to have all the characters in the best possible equipment I can get my hands on, aka the one with the highest stats... and that's if the game even HAS equipment considering a lot of the games also limit you to changing your weapon and accessory only.

There are many ways to do horizontal progression, its not always gear centric. Look at FFIX, sometimes you were required to use a shitty weapon just to learn the skill you wanted off of it. Look at FFVII there was crappier gear that had better materia slots in the configuration you were looking for. Look at FFVI there were whole characters that were optional that could optimize your party. They have 14 other main installments plus all the spinoff games to draw inspiration from and This was the best they came up with?