Job/Role daydreaming

[kikix12]

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it.

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes. Same as lifting a small car on your head. But not everyone can lift one, just like not everyone can do make such bleeding.

For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job".

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly. They simply do not know how to deal with it.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills"). It's unfortunate, but this development team either lacks people capable of making mechanics that give customization or the higher ups ignore those people. Considering what Yoshida said during all manner of interviews, I'm willing to bet that they are outright ignored though. So there is little to no chance for a properly made system like that. If that is the case, they should stick to the simplest forms without touching the trinity system they decided on.

[Reynhart]

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes.

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that. "No build but the best, personal preference be damned", "no thoughts put in managing the character", "splitting bonus points is an absolute no-no even though at the end, they almost don't matter compared to the stats you gain from gear"...Why would a developper put any effort in doing that if the playerbase if gonna brush the very concept ?

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly.

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine. But, to be honest, my gripe with SMN has no tie to the branching jobs. I just find it stupid to have a pet job having so few action actually tied to its pets.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills").

The problem with role skills is that they're only useful if you want to change the archetype of a class. Having tank role skills for tank role classes (DRK included) is useless. That's why I hope that they'll try to go back and do it properly.

[Ameela]

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine.

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

[Reynhart]

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

[Ameela]

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

If we're using SMN and SCH as a benchmark then you could consider any melee job with two 3-button combos to be a variation of Gladiator, as the similarities are about the same.
Could also say WHM is to BLM as SCH is to SMN, the only difference being that the latter come from the same class.

[Reynhart]

If we're using SMN and SCH as a benchmark then you could consider any melee job with two 3-button combos to be a variation of Gladiator, as the similarities are about the same.

Technically, there's not that much difference between ROG and LNC. It doesn't prevent the game from creating two different jobs. If you take the Gladiator above, give it some debuffing spells, a "stance" that spends HP to buff each WS and a skill that deals more damage the less HP you have, you could come close to a real "Dark Knight" DPS that would feel very different from PLD.

Yoshida literally and openly said that they pursue simplification to make balancing future fights easier.

He also said thaty they wouldn't put unique builds for characters and unique effect on items because he thought people would be rejected if they didn't have the mandatory best setup...which is stupid, because ilvl is already a mathematically best setup and yet the world didn't burn when not everyone had a perfect Zeta.

That's why the stat distribution was removed, why elemental affinities were removed

Stat distribution was removed way after they decided that jobs would only use one stat for all. And elemental affinities were removed right from the start because they feared that some jobs might be pushed away...yet they have no issue having physical affinities that effectively pushed jobs away...

As for the role skills, I think you missed the point of role skills as stated by the developers. Their purpose was to make sure that every player had every necessary skill at their disposal without having to level other classes.

But, that's stupid. You want every healer to have Swiftcast ? Make switcast a native skill for all of them. You want every tank to have Provoke ? Make Provoke a native skill to all of them. Removing the actual cross-"role" skills (Like Internal Release for WAR or Stoneskin for PLD) make those actions just bland, and especially because there wasn't even a choice of what you should use.

[Ameela]

Technically, there's not that much difference between ROG and LNC. It doesn't prevent the game from creating two different jobs. If you take the Gladiator above, give it some debuffing spells, a "stance" that spends HP to buff each WS and a skill that deals more damage the less HP you have, you could come close to a real "Dark Knight" DPS that would feel very different from PLD.

My point is there's no real point to tying two jobs to a class when you can just make a completely new job with no restrictions in terms of how it has to interact with parts of a pre-existing kit.

[kikix12]

But, that's stupid. You want every healer to have Swiftcast ? Make switcast a native skill for all of them.

Yes, exactly. That's my point. This simple fact is why I do not trust the developers with a more complicated form of talent trees or sub-jobs, ones that would bleed into different trinity role.

[kikix12]

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that.

Yoshida literally and openly said that they pursue simplification to make balancing future fights easier. I don't remember now in regards to what he gave that answer (probably as to why there are no gear varieties at the same item level anymore), but the answer was general enough.

That's why the stat distribution was removed, why elemental affinities were removed, why the class/job system was abandoned (and they didn't even have the courage to actually remove it leaving the trashed system behind), why the hunting log was abandoned. They make a lot of systems then abandon or remove them because they turn out to be too much of a pain to develop in the long run. Even leve quests for disciples of war. They abandoned it because it was too much work to give them flavor. Because writing "A rise in humidity increased the marlboro population. Nip the problem at the bud." is apparently too hard.


As for the role skills, I think you missed the point of role skills as stated by the developers. Their purpose was to make sure that every player had every necessary skill at their disposal without having to level other classes. Because things like Swiftcast always were "mandatory" for all related classes. That is large part of why this system was a complete and utter failure. Because of how limited the slots for them in comparison to the skills, people ended up picking four or five per class that everyone and their mother will have leaving the other skills behind. At that point this system is strictly inferior to simply GIVING every class the toolkit that they need to begin with.

It never was made for customization. Cross-class skills were made for that...but the choice of skills in it were simply flawed. Majority of the skills in questions simply had no utility whatsoever outside of classes that already had equivalent skills to begin with. Heck. There was even a warriors combo starter skill if I remember correctly...without any combo compatibility or purpose.