Job/Role daydreaming

[kikix12]

The only answer people have come up with is basically "I don't want to level another job." That's just lazy.

The answer to that is actually much simpler than that. If the talent tree is a supplement, then there is the core there. The class in itself would be largely in the skills that are set in stone.

Think about Scholar and Summoner for a moment. Both of them have the same basic toolkit. Let's ignore the major mistake a DPS class being the core for a healer. But that's the core in the form of Arcanist.

Since that core is there, there is no need to duplicate it. Making a new class entirely you will need to make that "core" again. And either you copy it from the original class (if Scholar was an upgrade of, lets say, Savant, then that Savant would copy the skills of an arcanist) which either makes the two classes so similar they could be one and the same to begin with (duh), or you have to change the aesthetics at least which would result in copying the skill effects, but would name them differently reducing the pool of names for actual new skills in the future. Alternatively those core skills could be made completely different (like, if this Savant would have an entirely different toolkit from Arcanist), making it bona-fide new class...but then you have to do TWICE as many skills in design. And the core skills usually are the simple things that are mostly copy-pasted with potencies switched around, so they are rather...unexciting. In both design and practice. So twice the design work for barely anything more.

These "talent trees" could even be leveled separately, so the "lazy" excuse is not even valid.

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic. That's what they did with Arcanist and Scholar and that absolutely did not work. Frankly, the team behind FFXIV is absolutely not able to properly balance the core between two different parts of the trinity. It's just not something they are skilled in, and it is not easy either. You can see that the game is simplified because they simply cannot cope up with balancing more complicated mechanics (they and some of the playerbase both). So I'm afraid that if such a thing would happen, it either would be ill-suited to a trinity system made by this team, or it would need to be mostly lesser in effect or entirely about play-style rather than role. As in, a paladin could get a bit more healing, but could not be a healer (changing survivability from brute-forcing into healing himself up, for example, paying for the ability to help the healers for non-tanks with having a harder time to deal with tankbusters himself). Red mage is a good example. The healing of a red mage is good enough to keep the party floating even without healers for a short while, but the healers are imperative in the long run. Red mage loses on damage however as a result.

And these "specialties", is what I'd like to see. Not reinventing the wheel.

[Reynhart]

Now, what is a bad idea is to bleed into different roles, unless the core would really be basic.

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it. For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job". With the proper role actions, you have everything at your disposal to do any role with any class at low level. And at higher level, the job specific actions will fill in the gap.

A long time ago, I used Gladiator as an example, and how reorganizing the current PLD skills could give room for a sword/shield based DPS. It went that way :

List Of Gladiator Skills

• Fast Blade (1)
• Fight or Flight (2)
• Savage Blade (4)
• Riot Blade (6)
• Shield Stance (10)
• Total Eclipse (15)
• Shield Lob (18)
• Shield Bash (26)
• Rage Of Halone (30)
• Sword Stance (38)
• Tempered Will (42)
• Goring Blade (46)
• Royal Authority (48)
• Circle Of Scorn (50)

List Of Paladin Skills

• Flash (30)
• Sentinel (35)
• Spirits Within(40)
• Shield Swipe (45)
• Hallowed Ground (50)
• Sheltron (52)
• Bulwark (54)
• Divine Veil (56)
• Clemency (58)
• Cover (60)
• Intervention (62)
• Holy Spirit (64)
• Requiescat (68)
• Passage Of Arms (70)

List Of Paladin Traits

• Enhanced Vitality (20, 40 and 60)
• Enhanced Enmity (30 and 50)
• Oath Mastery (52)
• Divine Magic Mastery (64)
• Enhanced Cover (66)

Below lvl 30, the enmity boost of "Shield Stance" would be enough to keep ennemies on you, so that you can remove the enmity bonus on Savage Blade, Shield Lob and RoH, and we know that current role skills are enough to survive. The PLD Enmity traits would add enmity bonus to (at least) your "enmity" combo, Shield Lob and Circle of Scorn. In the end, you'd have the exact same PLD that now at level 70, but it wouldn't be that hard to create a physical DPS using the Glad skills from level 1 to 50 at its core + the DPS role skills.

[kikix12]

I think it's doable, with a little thought put in it.

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes. Same as lifting a small car on your head. But not everyone can lift one, just like not everyone can do make such bleeding.

For me, it wasn't that great for SCH and SMN because SCH really felt rushed to avoid the "only one healer job".

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly. They simply do not know how to deal with it.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills"). It's unfortunate, but this development team either lacks people capable of making mechanics that give customization or the higher ups ignore those people. Considering what Yoshida said during all manner of interviews, I'm willing to bet that they are outright ignored though. So there is little to no chance for a properly made system like that. If that is the case, they should stick to the simplest forms without touching the trinity system they decided on.

[Reynhart]

That's the problem here. I have little to no faith in this team being able to do that. Is it doable? Yes.

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that. "No build but the best, personal preference be damned", "no thoughts put in managing the character", "splitting bonus points is an absolute no-no even though at the end, they almost don't matter compared to the stats you gain from gear"...Why would a developper put any effort in doing that if the playerbase if gonna brush the very concept ?

There were two expansions and multitude of patches since then, including ones that significantly changed the classes. And they still did not find a way to do it properly.

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine. But, to be honest, my gripe with SMN has no tie to the branching jobs. I just find it stupid to have a pet job having so few action actually tied to its pets.

And the cross role?! The way it was originally was rather...bad. The way it evolved into role skills was even worse and had no place in the game at all (it was counterproductive to the very intention for "role skills").

The problem with role skills is that they're only useful if you want to change the archetype of a class. Having tank role skills for tank role classes (DRK included) is useless. That's why I hope that they'll try to go back and do it properly.

[Ameela]

SCH and SMN are two well loved and really useful jobs, so they're working fine.

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

[Reynhart]

They're working fine now because after 2 expansions the only skills shared between the two are Ruin II, Bane and Rouse. Other than that they're completely different jobs.

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

[Ameela]

Yes, and like my example above, I'm pretty sure you could easily create a DPS job based on a Gladiator if you reorganize some skill between GLD and PLD, because they'd still have different role and job actions.

If we're using SMN and SCH as a benchmark then you could consider any melee job with two 3-button combos to be a variation of Gladiator, as the similarities are about the same.
Could also say WHM is to BLM as SCH is to SMN, the only difference being that the latter come from the same class.

[kikix12]

Frankly, I think the playerbase is the main culprit on that.

Yoshida literally and openly said that they pursue simplification to make balancing future fights easier. I don't remember now in regards to what he gave that answer (probably as to why there are no gear varieties at the same item level anymore), but the answer was general enough.

That's why the stat distribution was removed, why elemental affinities were removed, why the class/job system was abandoned (and they didn't even have the courage to actually remove it leaving the trashed system behind), why the hunting log was abandoned. They make a lot of systems then abandon or remove them because they turn out to be too much of a pain to develop in the long run. Even leve quests for disciples of war. They abandoned it because it was too much work to give them flavor. Because writing "A rise in humidity increased the marlboro population. Nip the problem at the bud." is apparently too hard.


As for the role skills, I think you missed the point of role skills as stated by the developers. Their purpose was to make sure that every player had every necessary skill at their disposal without having to level other classes. Because things like Swiftcast always were "mandatory" for all related classes. That is large part of why this system was a complete and utter failure. Because of how limited the slots for them in comparison to the skills, people ended up picking four or five per class that everyone and their mother will have leaving the other skills behind. At that point this system is strictly inferior to simply GIVING every class the toolkit that they need to begin with.

It never was made for customization. Cross-class skills were made for that...but the choice of skills in it were simply flawed. Majority of the skills in questions simply had no utility whatsoever outside of classes that already had equivalent skills to begin with. Heck. There was even a warriors combo starter skill if I remember correctly...without any combo compatibility or purpose.