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  1. #51
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
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    Amaurot
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    Tristain Archambeau
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    Cerberus
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    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Man oh man.
    We can assume that, if it is Zodiark, he is using Arbert's voice because it is familiar and therefore likelier to be trusted. Arbert gave us - and even Minfillia - a lengthy speech on the dangers that beset his world. This may serve to establish a reminder of those warnings.

    Even so, the voice is distorted, suggesting it requires quite some exertion from him and there is a great deal of urgency in it - this is my favoured interpretation of "eon become instant", because I don't think we're going to see time travel or timeline/world mergers just yet. There's strong pointers that Y'shtola may have been a bit reckless with that Allagan device, especially with the optional NPC dialogue after the event. However, it's a singular event and probably just a trigger. Going back to 3.4, one must reflect on Arbert's words that serving the Light, he and his fellow heroes did "everything right" and still, their world shifted from being endangered by Darkness to a flood of Light. Whatever the Ascians' motives, I don't think we fully understand the nature of either their god or Hydaelyn, or the Light and Dark, as such. I am reminded of Arbert's comment that it's not so much about Light or Dark as it is what you do with it.

    I agree with you that someone - possibly Zodiark - is probably trying to warn the Scions that their plan is rather bad. It's transparent, it is a risk Elidibus will have calculated the minute he took over Zenos's body and won't harm the Ascians, who thrive off chaos, so much as it will destabilise the Empire and along with it, many innocents' livelihoods.

    As a general comment on the aspect of time compression, and the whispers in various venues about how this might entail time travel, I rather doubt it. My view is that it's possible that if this is Zodiark, he may be able to view time as a singular point/moment, and therefore speaks in a way that might seem like travel, to regular mortals.

    I am linking the video because I think the themes in it are about to be realised in upcoming patches/5.0.

    https://youtu.be/SMMr_BZddAw
    (1)
    Last edited by Lauront; 09-22-2018 at 05:06 AM.
    When the game's story becomes self-aware:


  2. #52
    Player
    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Anony Moose
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    Excalibur
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    Arcanist Lv 100
    Catching up with all the new posts, I've been ruminating on a lot and trying to sort out the pieces and probabilities. Not that probabilities are doing much heavy lifting for us with all these twists lately.

    I've been twirling the Mysterious Voice pieces around and statistically they still feel Zodiark-shaped. As far as I can tell, we do not know of anything that could pull off a transdimensional soul-call conversation aside from a great crystal. We do not know of anything that would promise to force the barriers of time and space if only we would open the gates aside from Zodiark. Ergo, it is most likely either Zodiark or something we do not know.

    (Whether Yshtola messing around with the purple moon crystal in the cave with the snake statues is related on top of that assumption...)

    I've been trying to work out, for the sake of covering all the bases, how the Twin Dooms could be related rather than mutually avoidable and I've only got one idea so far:

    If Souce-side, localized Light and Dark forces (i.e. the "bearers" of that power) are not in balance, it might just be generally unsafe to attempt to blow out a dimensional barrier. If Elidibus is making a Calamity-level move, the pieces must be roughly where he wants them and it's time to bring the confluence of chaos to a crescendo. If Thancred clandestinely moves to cause Garlemald to turn on itself and attempt to uproot the Darkness in their midst, Calamity-level machinations going off around the same time might be catastrophic.

    This does the most lifting for the least work, but, again, logic alone hasn't been getting us very far lately.
    (12)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 09-22-2018 at 08:56 AM.

  3. #53
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Matthieu Desrosiers
    World
    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    The game tends to embrace double meanings when it comes to various phrases. 'Twin Dooms' could apply to a number of different things at the same time, including some or all of the following:

    - Arbert's home world and our character's home world.
    - Garlemald and Eorzea.
    - The delicate balance between 'Light' and 'Dark'
    - Hydaelyn and Zodiark.
    (1)

  4. #54
    Player
    Lauront's Avatar
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    Tristain Archambeau
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Catching up with all the new posts, I've been ruminating on a lot and trying to sort out the pieces and probabilities. Not that probabilities are doing much heavy lifting for us with all these twists lately.

    I've been twirling the Mysterious Voice pieces around and statistically they still feel Zodiark-shaped. As far as I can tell, we do not know of anything that could pull off a transdimensional soul-call conversation aside from a great crystal. We do not know of anything that would promise to force the barriers of time and space if only we would open the gates aside from Zodiark. Ergo, it is most likely either Zodiark or something we do not know.

    (Whether Yshtola messing around with the purple moon crystal in the cave with the snake statues is related on top of that assumption...)

    I've been trying to work out, for the sake of covering all the bases, how the Twin Dooms could be related rather than mutually avoidable and I've only got one idea so far:

    If Souce-side, localized Light and Dark forces (i.e. the "bearers" of that power) are not in balance, it might just be generally unsafe to attempt to blow out a dimensional barrier. If Elidibus is making a Calamity-level move, the pieces must be roughly where he wants them and it's time to bring the confluence of chaos to a crescendo. If Thancred clandestinely moves to cause Garlemald to turn on itself and attempt to uproot the Darkness in their midst, Calamity-level machinations going off around the same time might be catastrophic.

    This does the most lifting for the least work, but, again, logic alone hasn't been getting us very far lately.
    Well, if the Rejoining requires the barriers between the worlds to be broken down, a flood in either direction could "spill", so to speak - especially if it occurs just as at the time of the Rejoining, and not in the distant past as on the 13th, so you may be right. Either way, a Calamity would be a very bad thing, Rejoining or not.

    Edit - something interesting I came across today on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...en_44_msq_and/

    Usual spoiler warnings apply.
    (0)
    Last edited by Lauront; 09-22-2018 at 09:04 PM.
    When the game's story becomes self-aware:


  5. #55
    Player
    LineageRazor's Avatar
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    Lineage Razor
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    Gilgamesh
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    Goldsmith Lv 90
    I'm certainly seeing Varis in a new light, now, and I'm extremely curious as to HOW LONG he knew that his grandfather was an Ascian. Was he raised from a child with this knowledge, or did he only find out once Elidibus moved in? If he was previously aware, it lends a new layer to his shock at seeing Elidibus wearing his son's face: by taking the body of the heir apparent, the Ascians are clearly gearing up to personally take the reins of Galemand once again.

    Varis is also clearly not too pleased with the Ascians' use of him and the empire, and yet seems unwilling to do anything about it. I'm wondering if we're looking at another Thordan situation here, where he believes that if the truth was revealed, the terrible knowledge would destroy his nation. And so, he sees himself as being in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation: Either he sits idly by and allows the Ascians to use his nation as a machine to spread discord, or he acts against them and dooms that same country to destruction. And, being Varis, the rest of the world can go to Hell - Garlemand is the only important thing. But it is galling, nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by ObsidianFire View Post
    After this, five thousand years and three Calamities go by. This entire time, the Burn has gone without aether. During this time, Solus comes across it and says this is what happens when too many primals get summoned. Yeah right.
    I want to point out that both theories may be correct. Primals may have depleted the landscape, and the Allagan's manipulations prevented Aether from flowing back in to restore it. Certainly, it suited Solus's designs to omit the latter part, no doubt.
    (2)

  6. #56
    Player
    BellaRiddle's Avatar
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    Bellatrix Skylark
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    Behemoth
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    Monk Lv 70
    I believe VERY STRONGLY that the voice we heard in our heads was Arbert's.

    Minfilia probably reached out to our word and let his voice come through to warn us that we're making the same mistake they did (since we're about to go on full-blown offensive mode against the ascians) - Basically, they are meaning to warn us that if we kill the ascians, our world is done for, burned by the light's radiance, in the same fashion his were.

    I also believe that the fellows who are now taking a long nap were brought to the WoD's world, in a manner very much alike the one the WoD troupe was brought here - soul only. It's quite possible that while they were in Hydaelyn, their physical bodies over at their world were in a similar comatose state.

    Any thoughts?
    (0)
    Last edited by BellaRiddle; 09-26-2018 at 03:56 PM.

  7. #57
    Player
    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Anony Moose
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    Quote Originally Posted by BellaRiddle View Post
    Any thoughts?
    Since you very strongly believe the very thing that fell off of my "most likely" list, I suppose I'll put forth the considerations that I couldn't make fit.

    Let's skip right over "none of the people who would have been transported to the First have Crystals of Light through which to make the journey." Maybe if Minfilia's doing it you don't need them, eh? So Minfilia mimics Hydaelyn's soul-call ability and leaves us ... elsewhere.

    "That way...sorrow."
    Thancred's go a bad plan. Ok.

    "History...must be changed..."
    Need to redirect the flow of events. Got it.

    "Ahead looms a Calamity. Ahead looms Light, expunging all form and life. Twin dooms only you can forestall. Only you."
    Alright, our first variables. Is one going to hit and then the other? Or could either hit and we have to walk between them? I'm guessing if you're guessing this is Arbert, the latter?

    "Let expanse contract, eon become instant..."
    Come again? Why does Arbert want to change the laws of space and time as his solution to this problem?

    "Throw wide the gates that we may pass!"
    Come again!? When did Arbert gain the ability to make time and space bend before him!?
    What gate does he need to be let through? If Minfilia called me here, and he's still got his Crystal of Light, get it done, right?

    And why doesn't Arbert sound like Arbert in Japanese?
    (4)
    "I shall refrain from making any further wild claims until such time as I have evidence."
    – Y'shtola

  8. #58
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
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    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
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    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by BellaRiddle View Post
    I also believe that the fellows who are now taking a long nap were brought to the WoD's world, in a manner very much alike the one the WoD troupe was brought here - soul only. It's quite possible that while they were in Hydaelyn, their physical bodies over at their world were in a similar comatose state.
    Unfortunately, no. The grim truth is that, to quote the lorebook, "with Elidibus's guidance and knowledge, they ended their lives, and transcended the dimension to be born again as the Warriors of Darkness".

    They say that in the game as well, though I can't get the transcript for that scene. But afterwards....
    MSQ 3.4 "An Ending to Mark a New Beginning"

    ALPHINAUD
    I cannot help but wonder what awaits those wayward souls. If they gave their lives in order to travel to the Source, then in returning to the First, would they not...?
    ...But mayhap that was their wish.

    Whether it was truly the only way to move across dimensions, or just Elidibus's oh-so-helpful recommendation on how they should go about it, their situation was entirely different to what's happened to the Scions. Additionally it sounds unlikely that the Warriors still exist, unless they've somehow remained as interdimensional ghosts.



    Side note: checking quest scripts on Garland Tools, I noticed that Elidibus's dialogue tag is not simply his name but "ELIDIBUSEORZEA". What could that mean for future developments...?
    (3)

  9. #59
    Player
    Alien_Gamer's Avatar
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    Cynehild Westknight
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    Jenova
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    Warrior Lv 96
    Some idle speculation.
    What if there's more than just Zodiark and Hydaelyn? Both Omega and Midgardsormr are referenced to have come here from another place and Midgardsormr made a pact with Hydaelyn implying they may be more equal than most other beings. Is it possible there could be other beings like Midgardsormr who could communicate with us if they chose? Things seem to make a "little" more sense if we assume its not zodiark speaking but some other powerful entity.

    Another possiblity could be not another singular entity but several acting in concert? If a group of people with enough crystals could reach across the dimensional barrier to summon a primal, couldn't that group try to summon the WoL too?
    (0)

  10. #60
    Player
    LineageRazor's Avatar
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    Lineage Razor
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    Gilgamesh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer View Post
    Some idle speculation.
    What if there's more than just Zodiark and Hydaelyn? Both Omega and Midgardsormr are referenced to have come here from another place and Midgardsormr made a pact with Hydaelyn implying they may be more equal than most other beings. Is it possible there could be other beings like Midgardsormr who could communicate with us if they chose? Things seem to make a "little" more sense if we assume its not zodiark speaking but some other powerful entity.
    The idea that the one contacting us is a new planetary-level power unhinted up until now in the storyline is possible, but I personally consider it unlikely. It's a plot twist out of nowhere, in a plotline that's already pretty crowded. It's not impossible, though.

    Another possiblity could be not another singular entity but several acting in concert? If a group of people with enough crystals could reach across the dimensional barrier to summon a primal, couldn't that group try to summon the WoL too?
    When has anyone ever summoned a Primal from across dimensional barriers? All the Primals we've seen up to this point have been summoned from this planet's lifestream; there's no barrier to overcome. Primals don't come from another Reflection, as the Warriors of Darkness did - the Primals we've seen are home-grown. Theoretically, each Reflection may also have its own Primals, but we've never seen one from another world wind up on ours.

    There are VERY few things that are capable of crossing the dimensional barriers. The most common we've seen are Voidsent, and they most often need assistance from void mages on our side to break through. The Ascians apparently can, as well - at least the more powerful among them. Unukalhai and the Warriors of Darkness did, but all of them with assistance from the Ascians. Hydaelyn was able to send Minfilia to the WoD's home world, as well. That's pretty much the whole list, as we know it so far!
    (0)

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