Revelations from Patch 4.4

[Iscah]

...as we know that [Ascians] require a host to manifest on this star.

I've forgotten the details of the "how Ascians work" information - does it say for sure that they need to be within a host at all times? Or are they perhaps just a lot more vulnerable without one. (Not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to reconcile that information with what we've seen happen.)

The Black Rose:

Gaius suspects that the Ascians are responsible for making use of the Black Rose. This could very well be true, though I reckon there's another viable alternative. Zenos. The original one, that is. He did have access to pretty much everything in Ala Mhigo after all...and he's depraved enough to use it on a whim, perhaps in an effort to lure the Warrior of Light for another confrontation in the hope that he can get the true death that he desires? Even if the original Zenos is unrelated to the use of the poison, the fact that he did not show up at all in the latest batch of MSQ's makes me even more certain that he'll be dealt with as the final boss of 4.5 - as a loose end to tie up.

I'm not sure it would be Zenos's way to use poison like that. Given his 'thrillseeking' mindset and love of swordfighting, if he wanted to kill an entire encampment of people, I feel like he'd do it himself.

Also it seems like a very long shot to do that out in the middle of nowhere on the off chance that the Warrior of Light happens to stumble across it. It would be different if it was in an area we're active in, or we were already on his trail and he wants to get us riled up.

I always thought that was his Uncle Titus' casket?

I don't think it was ever said that Titus had died? The only death directly talked about is Solus, and then it shows the coffin and Varis spitting on it. I assumed it was therefore Solus, and it set Varis up in a negative light in his introduction. It wasn't until reading other people's discussions here that I heard it might be Titus instead, which made more sense (at the time), assuming we were supposed to read between the lines that Varis 'won' the war of succession because Titus had died / was assassinated.

It also doesn't help that we (the players, not the WoL) know what Zodiark looks like. He looks like Hydaelyn's dark purple twin. I'd kind of expect to see him if he was the one talking to us...

Do we know that for sure? Or has it just been assumed that dark crystal was "Hydaelyn's opposite" Zodiark?

I interpreted it as a vision of Hydaelyn being corrupted somehow.

about Solus

so is that the real solus or ascian possed solus im confused

I took it to be "the Ascian who was possessing the person named Solus throughout most-if-not-all of his military career and reign as emperor" who is now 'freed' from that body, but still essentially is the person who built and ruled the Garlean empire all this time.

On Dotharli beliefs...

The Dotharl believe that if you kill yourself in the House of the Crooked Coin, you remove your soul from the reincarnation cycle. The idea that it isn't just Ascian/Echo users' souls that can float around after death and attach to a body but everyone is intriguing...but more interesting to me right now is the idea that perhaps all those Dotharli who killed themselves on the statue (who removes the bodies?!) actually had their aether integrated into it.

I took it as the person jumping into the chasm, and presumably being absorbed entirely into the pool of aether.

And a random thought:

Because I clearly have my priorities straight... at whatever point we have the Scions 'recovering after getting their souls back', I wonder if we get to see Urianger's face properly again? I'd wondered prettymuch from the start of the game what he looked like, so it was good to finally see him without his hood and goggles in the Warriors of Darkness arc (once I'd gotten over the shock of it being him). Was just getting kind of used to it and then he was back to usual.

This may also be part of why I want Estinien to get back into the story. Still getting used to him with that appearance and connecting it up mentally to Edgy Heavensward Dragoon, because we only ever see him briefly and then he's off again. Still, it's been nicer replaying HW with my alt knowing what he actually looks like, being able to picture him reacting to things more easily, because it was bothering me throughout my first time around. (But I do also want him back because he's an interesting character.)

[ObsidianFire]

I would not be surprised if Nhaama was the Hydaelyn stand in. As for Azim... the Xaela have legends that go back to the Allagan empire and seemingly describe someone (Amon or Xande I'm betting) using a sliver of Nhaama's (Hydaelyn's) power. Then there's the Oronir's take on Azim as the one guarding Nhaama and watching out for her. Or from the Dotharl's perspective, Azim doesn't let Nhaama's worshipers do what they want unless Azim thinks it's okay. So I'm wondering if Azim is a bastardized Amon or Xande who tried to take control of Hydaelyn at one point.

Given what the Garleans are trying to do with religion (Man is the master of his own destiny)... I can see the Allagans trying to do the exact same thing. Only it's the Allgans, so until the empire fell, they were way more successful...

[Iscah]

I would not be surprised if Nhaama was the Hydaelyn stand in. As for Azim... I'm wondering if Azim is a bastardized Amon or Xande who tried to take control of Hydaelyn at one point.

Also keep in mind - I think it was pointed out at one point in Stormblood - that Azim and Nhaama seem parallel, at least in name, to to the Eorzean sun goddess Azeyma and moon fate goddess Nymeia.

I'm fairly sure we're winding up to an "all the gods are false" (or enlarged legends of real people) revelation, though I really wish they weren't. I'm tired of that trope.

[WhiteArchmage]

Ok, after being done with the MSQ (still towards 5.0)

Figures my wild guess about the Ascians being involved in the empire since Solus' time was spot on, although I figured Solus would have an ascian ADVISOR rather than being one himself; not just that, the way he said "it's not Allag but it's fine" means this Ascian's been around this the time of Allag, if they were not responsible for Allag itself.

This is...unexpected but it does open some possibilities come 5.0; I used to believe we'd face an Ascian-possesed Varis at the end of 5.0 but this opens the possibility of an ALLIANCE with Varis. He's obviously not happy with the shadow men running HIS country as if he wasn't the Emperor but a figurehead, which at this point he IS. It's really making me think Varis will offer us a grudging alliance to take HIS empire back from the Ascians, perhaps we're seeing Solus as a main-antagonist-preview as much as Zenos and Thordan were. I for one can't WAIT to kick their aether in.

Little side-note: Wonder WHO is the Ascian calling himself Solus. They tend to be named after the Scions of Light from XII and so far I think we only have Lahabrea, Nabriales, Altima, Emet-Selch and Igeyorhm, with Elidibus being a not-quite outlier being named after Zodiark's Host/Summoner in Tactics

About MSQ itself

Was pleasantly not surprised when Sui-no-Sato and Hingashi refused to join the Alliance, the first being an isolationist state that keeps itself safe underwater while the 2nd has its own policies about keeping its independence, joining the Domans and the Steppe would send a very powerful mesage to the Empire and Thavnair that the first wouldn't be too happy about (we don't know enough about Thavnair to know if they'd CARE). I'm STILL waiting for the Embassies in Kugane to become plot-relevant.

More Magnai and Sadu is always welcome, while I'm not a fan of "hatred turned into love" I do find myself ocasionally thinking "just <kupo> already!" whenever they're having one of their fights.

About the Patch image, I felt lied to; was so sure we'd run into Alphi and the group after The Burn but I guess it does make sense we completely missed them. Pretty much every person in that poster was missing until the stinger, and Maxima wasn't even there!

About the voice...part of me wants to believe it's Arbert, another wants to believe it's Zodiark

Little thing about The Burn

First time I ran it, everyone was puzzled about wth Allagan ruins were doing there, my response basically boiled down to: "It's always Allag"

[ObsidianFire]

Also keep in mind - I think it was pointed out at one point in Stormblood - that Azim and Nhaama seem parallel to to the Eorzean sun goddess Azeyma and moon goddess Nymeia.

I'm fairly sure we're winding up to an "all the gods are false" (or enlarged legends of real people) revelation, though I really wish they weren't. I'm tired of that trope.

Except that's not the case in either of these. Nhaama is portrayed by all the Xaela (even the Mol who are about as pacifistic as Xaela come) as being a war goddess and giving the love of battle to all her children. Nymeia meanwhile, is the Goddess of Fate and is basically the Twelves' version of the Fates/Norns/etc. If there's anyone in the Twelve Nhaama seems to be a parallel for, it's Halone maybe.

Azim is a weird one because we already know of at least two other sun deities. Azeyma is obviously one of them, but the Meracydians who summoned Sephirot had a very similar philosophy about the sun that the Xaela do. And we know that some of Azeyma's beliefs were mixed up with those Meracydian's beliefs in Allag. Their capital did have a Sun Temple after all... so I don't think it's Azeyma that Azim parallels.

Further increasing difference between the Twelve and Azim and Nhaama, is their roles in their respective creation myths. The Twelve are made by the Whorl and almost seem to be initially created by the world as much as they create it. After creating the world, then they leave it for the the heavens. Azim and Nhaama were never created. They're always considered to be the Sun and Moon and have always been at war with each other. It is said they came down from the sky and had mortal children to continue that war, but when their children made up, Azim and Nhaama left for the heavens again and didn't fight anymore. So you've got one pantheon where they start on the earth and then leave for the heavens and another pantheon that starts in the heavens and then comes down to earth for a little bit.

As for "all gods are false", I don't think we're there just yet. The Kojin beast tribe quests show that the Kami are real at least. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are definetly real. In a world where faith makes things real, I question whether how real a god was to start off with really matters in the end.

[Chewy2nd]

Regarding The Burn/MSQ

The second boss room is called the Gamma Segregate, so I'm guessing the Gamme Quadrant is from The Burn, the rock formations seem to match, but weirdly Gamma is where the temple is located, which has been stated as being a Meracydian temple

[Lauront]

I've forgotten the details of the "how Ascians work" information - does it say for sure that they need to be within a host at all times? Or are they perhaps just a lot more vulnerable without one. (Not trying to prove you wrong, just trying to reconcile that information with what we've seen happen.)

It's a good question and I've not been able to find a solid answer, as the lorebook is somewhat nebulous on their true nature. They certainly don't need to be in a host to exist, and we know this because if their host dies, the Overlords at the very least can simply vanish away to safety through the power of the crystal of Darkness, in the Aetherial Rift - weaker Ascians don't seem to share this power, perhaps due to their lack of adequately developed mastery over their Echo. The Overlords don't even appear to even be more vulnerable without a host - not unless you catch them right after defeating them in their host form, have the means to trap them and the means to slay them through concentrated use of aether. However, I think they do need a host to manifest their powers in different worlds to their own, and this is something which we probably don't fully understand as yet. Bear in mind that most of our knowledge on them is based on prior encounters, and therefore most likely incomplete. I am fully expecting Elidibus and "Solus" to be full of surprises.

[Lauront]

Regarding Zodiark...

I watched the scenes again. The alteration of the speaker's voice, from one which sounds like Arbert's, to a booming one, is ostensible. Still, could it be the result of mere distortions?

Though the "eon become instant" line is suggestive of time compression, what if he is simply saying we need to bring things forward... faster? The "History must be changed" line does point to time travel... BUT - what if it is not the past in the strict sense but the trajectory we're on? This could make sense if the person speaking is doing so with a vision into the future in mind. What I have in mind is that not only is Zodiark able to manipulate time but also sees it as a compressed singularity.

Another possibility that crossed my mind is that some of his words may have been lost during transmission, e.g. as with the "That way... sorrow" part. So we might not be getting the full picture.

I'm also not convinced that the "we" part is decisive, even with the knowledge that Zodiark is a deity and adept in such practices as soul merger. It might be intended, though, to create the ruse that it is the Warriors of Darkness.

It's probably the part of the lore I am now most eager to find out more about. I had always thought Zodiark was dormant and unable to perform such acts - maybe he has regained enough power to do so? Or is it Arbert acting at his or Elidibus's behest? Arbert's conviction was certainly very strong, and here is a reminder of the outcome of that storyline. with his parting words of wisdom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMr_BZddAw

[DarthSanguine]

Also keep in mind - I think it was pointed out at one point in Stormblood - that Azim and Nhaama seem parallel to to the Eorzean sun goddess Azeyma and moon goddess Nymeia.

Nymeia isn't the moon goddess, Menphina is.

[DarthSanguine]

Azim is a weird one because we already know of at least two other moon deities.

Shouldn't that be sun deities?