Thread: Revelations from Patch 4.4

On the Burn...

Irrespective of its actual history, Eikons/primals are known to exert a draining effect due to the amount of aether they consume. No one now denies the need to check their summoning and it is far, far easier than ever imagined, as Ysayle, Thordan and Tsukuyomi all proved. It's unclear when Solus became possessed by an Ascian, but it is now plausible that there may have been an Ascian hand leading the Garleans into the Lake of Tears, who did not know of Midgardsormr's presence. The Ascians probably calculated that he'd react in the way he did, resulting in summoning growing into a larger threat, further bolstering the Garleans' resolution to quell it... an Eikon like Thordan could still, nonetheless, turn the world into something like the Burn.

On Varis...

It is pretty clear to me that he had taken to heart the Empire's stated objective and sought to act on it - he truly believes in it and has yet to come to terms with what "Solus" revealed. Whatever the nature of Solus, Varis sought to act on the ostensible ideals upon which he built the Empire. This is consistent throughout the story where he appears; "Solus" even remarks that he is an easy one to read, no doubt due to his direct nature. The real question is when did the Ascians begin ramping up their manipulation, and on what bases? "Solus's" tone is highly suggestive of Varis only recently having been made aware of the truth about the Empire. Like Remedi said, this new Ascian was not relevant until recently, i.e. after the events in Azys Lla - incidentally, this is also when Regula encountered us in the Warring Triad side-quests and said to the WoL that the Emperor may have need of his assistance in the future. Quite when did Varis know he was an Ascian? No clue. Could've been well before, and perhaps that's why he spat on his uncle or grandfather's coffin, thinking that'd be the end of it, without being as yet fully apprised of how much of Solus's life was spent as an Ascian. For now, we don't know and as usual, there are a great many variables.

My view on what has happened is that Elidibus was playing "good cop", even allowing Varis to pursue his Ascian brethren, and making promises to help the Empire fulfill the objective Varis had taken as his own (primal eradication), but that doubts may have begun to arise when Elidibus took on Zenos's guise. Hence, Elidibus rolled out this new guy, who eventually - and presumably, recently - fed Varis some cold truths (assuming they are, since these are Ascians), and we have the status quo, hence his bitter resentment. There's I'm curious, though, what "Solus" meant when he said Varis could accomplish a great deal to further the goal of dispatching threats to the balance, not just through the Empire but his own hand. An intriguing remark. Was he trying to tempt him to take up the Resonance? Will this new guy turn the tables on Elidibus at the first opportunity and become a villain, with Elidibus being more of an antagonist? Would be an interesting twist.

I think if someone is hellbent on seeing Varis as a villain or irredeemable, they'll do just that, just as many did with Gaius, Regula and many other characters. I disagree with this interpretation of where SE is taking the story and I am hoping SE will be putting him to more ambitious uses than that, i.e. a reluctant ally and "in" into Garlemald, maybe when he sees Alphinaud accompanied by Gaius, a man who was in a situation much like he is in now. We can but speculate given how little we know.

On the Garleans...

You have to ask, why would the Ascians specifically choose them, when they are mostly unable to wield magic, a tool Ascians utilise to great effect, as did the Allagan?

I suspect it is because they are the same people as those who left Goug, and therefore their technological prowess was known to the Ascians, making them uniquely well suited to utilising and reverse-engineering Allagan technology, and having a motive to do so, due to their aetheric deficiency. There is no inference that the Empire was solely possible due to the Ascians; only that they had used it as their project to sow chaos - if anything, they may have sped that the process up. What I think they really did was to provide the rationalisation for subjugating territories beyond Ilsabard. Garlemald already had gained the upper hand over its rivals prior to Solus turning it into an empire, and probably would've taken over Ilsabard in time - what the Ascians seem to have done is galvanised the process, sped it up and cast its gaze outwards. No timeframe has been provided, so this is ambiguous until SE clarify further.

I also believe the Ascians considered their widespread inability to wield magic a tractable problem - through the Resonance. But with the cat now out the bag, Garlemald may eventually slip from their control once the truth gets out. It is also why I do not think the Ascians have any appetite to kill Varis and risk a war of succession. This may be the role the real Zenos plays - to expose their deceit. However! The counter-maneuver proposed by Thancred is easily predictable, so I have little doubt that Elidibus will factor this in, if he's not already aware.

On the Ascians...

My pet theory now is that, as beings whose deity is not native to/embedded in this Shard, there is the possibility that the power they enjoy as servants of Zodiark is limited by the potential of their host to channel aether. That said, it would appear to me that for the Overlords, they have a great deal of control over their host's form whilst they're tethered to it. So much so that they're able to bring it back into being if it is injured, merge it into a form like the Ascian Prime (the motive being, to surpass the limitations of the host), and probably do much more than just body hop. Elidibus's comments on Zenos's "adamant" form are unlikely to relate to Zenos's strength alone - we know from the Nabriales/Moenbryda interaction that they can augment their host's strength to incredible heights. I suspect it has more to do with the raw ability to channel aether and allow them to more fully manifest their Echo and other powers. Zenos was, after all, enhanced through the Resonance, most likely an extension of Zodiark's echo. Again, the Pureblood aetheric deficiency might make possessing them less susceptible to interventions by Hydaelyn. This is why I also don't buy that "Solus" was doing anything but performing a ruse on Varis. Pretending to die by letting the host perish, knowing full well that it would not suffice to override his control or "eject" him, so he could just conjure back the body seconds later and spook the audience. The fact that the fight with Nabriales took place in the Chrysalis might be a slight wrinkle here, but it could be because he was already tethered to a host and had to act fast - additionally, I think the newer lore is overwhelmingly pointing in this direction, which would be in common with how fantasy settings tend to deal with extraplanars. We know little of the true nature of the Ascians.

On Hingashi...

Theodric's point about Val is also a good one. I had forgotten about it and it is one reason why they may have very little taste for joining anyone remotely associated with the Eorzean alliance, for now at least. I doubt it enamoured them too much towards Doma, a nation they perhaps might consider a prospective competitor for influence in the region, once it rebuilds.

Hopes for the future...

I am really looking forward to this new Ascian playing a big role and I hope that he is very prominent and theatrical in his execution, like Ardyn. The scene between him and Varis also reminded me of this scene from Batman Ninja!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSInDJ6or2o

I'm also very hyped now to see where the Scion storyline is heading, especially if this is Zodiark with whom we're communing.

Hello folks I finally have a chance to divulge my brain on MSQ:

It was a good experience to get to adventure with Yshtola and to see Thancred's face after a long period of not adventuring with them. Its also good that we can see that they aren't necessarily 100% safe. The most influential scions were snapped up from our grasp without any real explanation other than to cement that there is a big problem with the path that we decided on for Garleans.



Given what we know, we can surmise that the spreading of the information is going to raise dissent of the empire as long as the people remain oblivious to their captors. My head canon paints a picture in which people try to raise up against the Empire and places it in to a corner in which it has to take drastic measures in order to keep control. Which we already have some approval that this is a thing as the poison that was released on the rebel camp can be made an example. I do not believe this is tied in to the sudden weird/lack of aether that has spouted around the world. I tend to believe that forces that are beyond the world's current understanding are at play that is bigger than the empire.



It is also not terribly surprising that Solus is an ascian. It seems like Solus' upbringing was devoted to Military and Technological advancement which grew to help the people of the ravenous lands of the north. From what I gather he was 28(ish) years old whenever he assumed the role of Emperor and at the same time he declared war and starting gathering land and people to his cause. I would like to think that it was sometime in his teens or very early 20s that Solus was swapped out to be an Ascian. I feel like they seized the moment and swapped out whomever the real Solus was. After all the Galvus family was well known in the Republic. Either way it throws a wrench in the equation that the Eorzean alliance doesn't know about. It does bring up questions about how much the Solus really knew whenever Dalamud was brought forth to fall. I think he had a public image to save after the Bozja incident thus strung the project along until it could happen at an opportune moment while allowing van Darnus to succumb to the influence. I also think that the possession of a body doesn't stop it's aging process.



The Ascian Solus was an emperor for 40 years. That is probably a lot of Ascian energy expended to keep control of a body for so long which is the real reason why he was taking rest in the Ascian realm. To note, the return of Solus also coincides with Lahabrea's death which would have finally been confirmed whenever Estinien destroyed the eyes. Varis is nearly in a powerless spot at the moment. He is surrounded by Ascians and pretty much has to play to the beat at which the Ascian's demand. Pretty much his ONLY power play is to delay things as much as possible. We can see he is willing to rebel against his Ascian masters but to what degree does it go!? Why is it that the ascians bother not to just kill him and take his body!?


I have a few people on my list that I want to talk to about what is going on; Specifically Krile and Matoya for the Scions and maybe any or all of the currently existing great Wyrms to figure out what is going on with the planet. I also need a download from Tiamat specifically as to what happened with the Burn. I would think of all people she would at least have a history to that point.

Ascian Manipulation:

I'm actually pretty pleased with how it was handled. I've been a long time fan of Varis and have been stating that he was a wildcard from the moment he first appeared. Solus was beloved by his people yet turned out to be an Ascian leading them astray. Varis doesn't have the same amount of love or respect...but he genuinely cares for his people. His hands are simply tied by at least two different Ascians. Both of which are seemingly far more powerful and cunning than Lahabrea. Thordan actually had an easier time of it, given that he had steadfast allies at his side. Varis has...no one, to our knowledge. He was firm friends with Regula, who is now out of the picture.

One has to wonder how much Regula actually knew about the situation back in Garlemald, because his final words were that the Emperor would have need of the Warrior of Light. Granted, the Emperor may not have informed Regula of the Ascian situation...but on the other hand, if he were to confide in someone about it then it'd probably be Regula.

I also echo the interest in Zenos' mother. As it stands, I suspect she's dead - but it'd be interesting if she's still alive. I also wonder if Zenos was actually set to be a normal child before Elidibus and Solus stepped in...

The Four Lords:

It was...alright. Granted, the 4.3 fight was always going to be hard to top so I didn't expect Suzaku to be incredible. I'm a little disappointed that we knew her for all of three minutes before being thrown into what was meant to be an emotional fight. Less time spent on Soroban and Tataru and more on the actual Four Lords would have been pleasant. Byakko had a decent amount of build up and emotional weight to his story. Suzaku ended up getting a raw deal and the impact of her fight was dulled by the 'so random xD' nonsense from Soroban and Tataru. It'd be great if the fourth wall breaking commentary was confined to the Hildibrand quests where it belongs.

About the MSQ discussion

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I like this idea a lot.

When Varis found out about Solus will end up determining a lot of how I fell about Varis, I think. Because if he didn't know about Solus until after ARF... yeah, everything we see in the Sea of Clouds (and probably Regula's orders during Sephirot) is him without any pressure being put on him. Not that he can't change his mind later, but still. It would say something about what he was planning to do with the Garlean Empire before he started being manipulated.

Well Solus did say that he was happy that his job was done but got called back by Elidibus because of Lahabreas mistake so I do believe that he was not there to influence Varis after Solus "death". If we count Lahas death as the mess up then he only came back into the picture after Thordans death, maybe even later than that because Elidibus still had the WoD. They were his new players to create the next calamity so I see no reason to him already calling Solus back. Thus Varis should have had at least a time where he established himself and thanks to some sources like the theater group we do know that he does censorship, something that even Solus did not do.

So I dont think that his hands were tied all the time. Heck I am not really sure if his hands are completely tied at all. Yes he is in a harder place but only because Elidbus got hands on his sons body. This is a problem for him and may be why he is displeased. We learned from Thancred that Zenos is important for him (strange how he still showed no remorse for his death) because of infighting. This way Elidibus is a bit of a threat because showing the people that his son is not truly alive anymore could lead to conflict and maybe even have the people question if Varis is also working with them. But again this only happened at the end of 4.0. Before that we have no clue if Elidibus was strongly in his politic and how much power he wielded.

Solus might have been the old emporer but he is official death. He died as an old man thus he cant just show up again. People would not trust him and should not side with him so I can only truly see him as dangerous by creating conflict inside Garlemald by helping the rebells if Varis does not do what they want. But seemingly they dont want to have fights inside Garlemald (maybe that would not give enough energy to create a calamity) and maybe thats even the reason why both Ascians controll Varis now.

We are also shown that Elidibus still does not act completely on his own will. He asked for Varis permisson to act as Zenos but Varis did not give him one. Thus he could not attack. That shows that he still has enough power left. And if his people are really that important to him, why does he do cencorship, why does he kill opponents? Why did he not stop the plan with Doma?

So as long as we dont find out that he was fighting against them the whole time I will still remain negative towards him. Because he was still the person that outright said that he wants to kill all the beast tribes and anyone that can summon primals (Which would probably be against the plan of the Ascians since primal summoning is great for their goal). He still called other savages, he still does not allow certain opinions under his rule and he still gave his okay to shot down a Garlean ship just because they were his opponents. Just because we have Ascian involvement does not suddenly mean that he was never okay with any of that. Because if he cant say or do anything about this, how should he realistically be able to work with Alphinaud for example?

Maybe his view is simply that men alone should be mighty thus he would have still conquered the lands and tried to destroy primals and is just annoyed that he has the ascian on his side or that his country just grew that fast because of them. (Heck we dont even have informations on when he learned about his grandfather. He could have known it all the time or he simply learned it after the death of his son. Or somewhere inbetween.)

Its just way to early to give him a white vest just because he might be controlled now (and it really depends if he is even that much controlled).

What we do know right now is that Garlemald only exists as a playground for the Ascians and to grow chaos and to create calamities (thus our hint about the empire itself - not the people living in it- being evil is right) and that their leader right now is influenced by them. We do not know if maybe they truly have the same goals (like Solus has hinted) or if Varis wants something completely different. All we know is that Solus was not always there, that Elidibus still asked for permission to start another attack and did not get one because of some doubts. We do not know what doubts he has. Maybe he really wants peace, maybe he just wants to rule the world without Ascians by his side or maybe he is just annoyed that Elidibus used a primal at Doma (against his wishes) and now does not want to work with them anymore. Anything else is speculation. So it would be the best to not write that others lack an understanding in seeing nuance just because they see it different. Maybe he is a good person and will work together with us, maybe not. But at least the infos we do have right now dont lean towards the first imo, and if it happens maybe more in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way.

Big post over. Just had this flying around my head the whole day and wanted to post it.

My answers about Varis and Zenos (10 character limit ftw)

Originally Posted by Rosenoire

Varis and Zenos:

For me, Varis' callousness about his son's death makes so much more sense now than after the end of 4.0, because my take away was that Zenos hasn't truly been his son for a long time.

Do we know that Zenos was not mad before he got the resonant? Because for me it seems like he was already quite battle hungry in the echo cutscenes and Fordola at least only got it in SB after they got Krile and used her echo. I did read up that Zenos was the only one that was for the exerpiments in the court but wouldnt Varis as the emporer be able to just end it if he had big doubts about that? Also if it was Zenos that was for this experiment wouldnt it make more sense that it was him that used himself as a test subject? Elidibus might have influenced them a bit but we saw that he does have to ask for permission to do something, even in the body of Zenos, and before Zenos death he had no body that we know of thus should have not been able to force anything. So imo we dont know if Varis was fine with the experiments but he at least should have known about it (otherwise what kind of emporer is he if he does not know about such things happening) and should have been able to stop it (just like he did not start the next part of the war even with Elidibus right there). Thats why I am also quite skeptic about giving Varis any sympathy. Maybe he was fine with all of it until he saw that they might go behind their own words or maybe after Elidibus wore his own sons body. And as long as we dont know this I still see him as part of the problem. If SE goes another way fine, then I will have to eat my words (and nothing wrong with that because we are always just speculating on a story that are not shown fully) but right now he is still the person that restricts the freedom of speech, that allowed experiments to happen under his rule, that sent out troopes to kill the opponents and that had nothing against the Ascians plan until they summoned a primal, so he just does not create much sympathy in me.

Also since we learned that Zenos was important because having a heir stopped any fighting inside Garlemald so him being untouched by his death is still strange to me. No matter on how he saw his son, if Elidibus had not worn him as his new suit the message of his death would have gone out somewhere in the future thus could have created more unrest. Thus my surprise.

(And just to be sure: I never said that Varis could not have some good points but at least for me the bad thing that we know of [we will see if they are true or not] always were worse for me thus he was evil in my eyes. But being evil does not mean imo that he does not have the ability to feel doubt or have any nuance just that he was never someone that I would side with and that should be gone for a better future for the world. And as long as we dont get to see truly good things from him or learn that he never wanted anything bad for anyone, I will continue to believe that way. Because SE had shown that they are completely fine with making Garlemald as a country into being evil by letting it only exist to create chaos. Thus I remain skeptic if Varis wont just be another villian.)