This Needs to Be Said

[Aster_E]

Yeah, despite completing four weapons in Pagos after the change to exp with the NMs, I'm probably not touching Pyros until we know that the rng is minimal at most. If that doesn't happen with the third phase of the relic then I'm not even going to queue in.

When Pagos came out and I denounced my active achievement hunting in this game, I meant it, and don't care how far behind I fall back with what I have if this becomes a game that I simply cannot enjoy, especially when resources are taken out of a larger variety of dungeons to go into Eureka. Even more the case when the NMs in Eureka don't even count towards the FATE achievements; the FATEs and Notorious Monsters in Diadem do, however!

I hope y'all join me on this, who simply do not like this content. There's no point adding so much traffic to this nonsense.

[Granyala]

I'm sorry in advance, but having just fully returned recently and now seeing the news, I really need to get this off my chest. What is it with the devs and their obsession with Diadem-like gameplay? What is with this vision of theirs about this that they keep beating it into the player base?

Because it is "content" that is extremely easy to design.
Think about it: instead of having to design a complex dungeon with new mobs, new abilities, new art etc, they can just re-use art assets, mob models and abilities in game.
Then they slap a braindead grind onto it so players are "occupied" for a long time and put a shiny carrot at the end.

Maximum player "engagement" (didn't work for my group, we fell asleep and abandoned the content) for minimum effort.
THAT is why they have a fetish for this crap. It's pure economic thinking.

Yes, SE I said "crap" because this is a SUBSCRIPTION MMO. I expect more ingenuity and effort for the kind of cash we throw at you compared to some Free to play asia grinder.

[Reynhart]

1) the devs encouraged it

How would you do that ?

Think about it: instead of having to design a complex dungeon with new mobs, new abilities, new art etc, they can just re-use art assets, mob models and abilities in game.

Yeah, instead of designing one straight line with three circle rooms, they have to design a huge zone with caves, slopes, verticality, etc...

[Granyala]

Yeah, instead of designing one straight line with three circle rooms, they have to design a huge zone with caves, slopes, verticality, etc...

Yes they have to build the map. But, provided a good map editor, that doesn't take nearly as long as creating new art assets.
Yoshida said in an interview that creating 3D art assets is their biggest bottleneck.

In that light, it makes sense why they constantly re-use stuff they already have.

[Reynhart]

But, provided a good map editor, that doesn't take nearly as long as creating new art assets.

Same for dungeons, on top of being extremely bland in their design. They're all one linear path to three bosses.

[BillyKaplan]

Same for dungeons, on top of being extremely bland in their design. They're all one linear path to three bosses.

Dungeons have a tendency to differ from each other though, especially the SB dungeons. If you take the time to enjoy the scenery as you murder adds, it can actually make a lot of difference. In comparison, Eureka is a zone that for all its sub-zones, you're still supposed to spend hours upon hours in there.
And it's not like they never had non-linear dungeons. But that's more something the community is responsible for. When was the last time you full-cleared Sastasha? Unlocked the full map in Toto-Rak, or hell, even went down the other path for a change? Does anyone even remember what you get in those side rooms in Dzaemel Darkhold?
The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

[Granyala]

Yeah, sadly, non linear dungeons don't work very well in practice. Blizzard tried many, times.

It's okay for raids which are done by organized groups but not dungeons in which you get thrown together with randoms you never see again.

[KaivaC]

How would you do that ?

Remember what I said some pages back. Use a simple system message that only pops up when you get into an Eureka zone. That's literally all the devs would need to do to encourage feedback. Set it up so that it only pops up when you go in there.

[Reynhart]

The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

You're right about that, but it doesn't change the fact that dungeons are easy to make. As for the scenery, most dungeons only reuse existing textures from the real zones. And most monsters also reuse past 3D models, with a different texture sticked on it.
Besides, before we had content like Diadem and Eureka, we still only one had "new" dungeon per major patch, the others were only reusing past maps and assets..and we still have our "new" dungeon each patch.

Yeah, sadly, non linear dungeons don't work very well in practice. Blizzard tried many, times.

I wouldn't say that, and more "branching path that offers nothing don't work well". I think they could have a dungeon where you can do the first bosses in any order you want, and once you've killed the three of them, then the final room opens for the fourth boss.
Funny thing, Toto-Rak was much more interesting in 1.x, where the numbers of portals you activated actually changed the location and the strength of the last boss. You also had additionnal rewards at the end for opening every chest, encouraging you to explore the branching paths. 1.x Cutter's Cry also required you to split your party in two because you had to clear rooms at the same time.

Set it up so that it only pops up when you go in there.

When reading this, what comes to my mind is the Achievement pop-up you have when you zone, and I tend to ignore it every time

[Xau]

Dungeons have a tendency to differ from each other though, especially the SB dungeons. If you take the time to enjoy the scenery as you murder adds, it can actually make a lot of difference. In comparison, Eureka is a zone that for all its sub-zones, you're still supposed to spend hours upon hours in there.
And it's not like they never had non-linear dungeons. But that's more something the community is responsible for. When was the last time you full-cleared Sastasha? Unlocked the full map in Toto-Rak, or hell, even went down the other path for a change? Does anyone even remember what you get in those side rooms in Dzaemel Darkhold?
The community would find the most efficient way to clear content and follow it only, effectively making anything else in the dungeon a waste of development time.

that hapened because taking those alternative paths what brings you to nowhere didn't rewarded you(tell me, how many arr dungeons alt path treasures give you gear what was equal to boss gear?) or didn't helped to pogress on the dungeon at all(the only exception to this is toto rak because you are required to find multiple items on the map, albeit most of them are on the linear path), i mean, if you end up on a closed path and there is nothing... well, why bother to go there the next time?, in this regard the dev team is lazy, because they could make big dungeons maps whit multiple paths be worthwile, but they don't whant to