We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Dualgunner]

No, really, not everyone will think like this. If I could make one point, its that you cannot take this for granted.

Clearly not everybody thinks your way either.

[RiyahArp]

Sure, someone frustrated by a challeging PvE game will go play a competitive PvP game...

Yeah, not everyone plays those games competitively or in ranked. Arcade modes, Lucioball, Mystery heroes, etc. Only as competitive as you make it.

For me, if you want to keep a healthy playerbase, you have to expect some dedication from them, so that you have room to create deeper and deeper content to avoid stagnation, wich is, coincidentally, the major problem of FFXIV. If wiping in a lvl 20 dungeon makes one go cry in a corner, then maybe this game is not for them.

The stagnation has nothing to do with difficulty, it has everything to do with repeating the same structure of endgame for what, four years? The only real change was eureka, and that was where all the life is. Even Pagos. That has nothing to do with difficulty, and making it harder will just make people less incline to bother with it as opposed to sit in limsa chatting on discord.

Sure, we can remind people of mechanics with a line or two, but coddling player ignorance and carrying them is not the burden of us players who are going through the exact same content.

...well, what happens when you make it harder then? I mean geez, you feel that way now, the last thing you want is hard content because it will be ten times worse.

[Dualgunner]

Yeah, not everyone plays those games competitively or in ranked. Arcade modes, Lucioball, Mystery heroes, etc. Only as competitive as you make it.

But by your logic the more effort they put into ranked, the less fun casuals will have in it.

The stagnation has nothing to do with difficulty, it has everything to do with repeating the same structure of endgame for what, four years?

These are not mutually exclusive things.

The only real change was eureka, and that was where all the life is. Even Pagos. That has nothing to do with difficulty, and making it harder will just make people less incline to bother with it as opposed to sit in limsa chatting on discord.

As opposed to now, where...people in general just sit in Limsa chatting on Discord.

[Dzian]

I mean...at some point, the fault starts to lie with the players themselves. Even if one used a jump potion, you should have enough common knowledge about MMOs to know that you should keep your gear updated as you level up. The mistakes that the devs make, yes, they should be called at to fix. But if, as a player, you've made it to the second dungeon, and your right side is empty or is under 200 (I'm being very lenient on this...really, you should be at least 240-260 by the time you hit SB), then the fault lies entirely with that player doing this.

Generally speaking I would agree but at the same time. It's easy to see why players end up under geared. The levelling process in the game is so fast it's more effort than it's worth to keep your gear up to date in a big way.

Even with levelling dungeons guaranteeing gear drops the problem stems from the fact that in the time you've done a couple of runs of say bardam and got maybe 2 or 3 items from an entire set. Your already high enough to be going into doma castle. And by the time you've got a couple of pieces from there your off to castrum abania.. and if rng keeps giving you the same kinda things. Like head and feet then the rest of your gear simply doesn't get upgraded nor is it worth upgrading because of how quick it will be out levelled.

Roulettes also don't help. If you're doing them daily then most of the time you'll be synced down to something so it really doesn't matter if your using lower gear.

It's pretty much the same issue players have with the endgame treadmill. Gear is replaced too quickly even in endgame.

[KaivaC]

...well, what happens when you make it harder then? I mean geez, you feel that way now, the last thing you want is hard content because it will be ten times worse.

There is nothing wrong with fights from this point onward being tuned to Shinryu/Tsuki levels. We already have slightly to moderately difficult content in those and Susano, and some players still can't get through it without being carried through mechanics. Again, why do we need to coddle this? I'm sorry, but if you're telling me that having content from this point forward will turn off players and make them quit, then oh well. We're at a point where it's time to stop making supposed level 70 dungeons feel like jokes. If players who are not 1st timers cannot figure it out after running content 3 or 4 times, then it sucks to be them.

You want an example of how hard content should be for MSQ? There you go, I just named 3 trials.

[Zojha]

Sure, someone frustrated by a challeging PvE game will go play a competitive PvP game...

...Why not? Do you know what MMR (Matchmaking Rating) is and what it does? A competitive PvP game is only as "difficult" as your opponents make it and players are typically matched with/against people of similar skill via MMR. So you don't need to adjust to the difficulty if you don't want to, the game will adjust the difficulty to suit you.

What you are doing is expecting the players to cater to the game, rather than the game catering to the players. That's incidentally exactly what Yoshida does when he tells you to "Please learn how to do that" about grinding in Pagos. And I'm not sure about you, but I didn't "learn how to do that", because I didn't find it fun. I simply skipped Eureka entirely and play something more enjoyable in the meantime. It's no different with difficulty.

That said, it is indeed the case that not all content, or all games, are for everyone. You pick your audience by catering to them. A game like Dark Souls is marketed as unforgiving from the start and caters to people who like such an experience quite well - as a result, most of its players are happy with it. Players who prefer something easier will likely not pick it up, play other games instead and be happy with that.
And trying to change the audience halfway through is bound to lead to alienation and issues. As it stands, if someone doesn't enjoy wiping in a lvl 20 dungeon, this game is, in fact, for them, because the chances of it happening are close to zero. Changing it means that the game is indeed no longer for them, but rather a different set of people, so the players you already have leave and new players come in. You better make sure that's worth the trade.

[Reynhart]

The stagnation has nothing to do with difficulty

For me it kinda has a little. You can't create that much different mechanics if you need to keep them shallow. And it contributes to the repetitiveness of content. The first time you face the "stacking" mechanics or the "turn away" mechanic, you might find it fun and refreshing. The tenth dungeon that uses it is just "Oh, it's that again..."

...Why not? Do you know what MMR (Matchmaking Rating) is and what it does?

Even with a proper matchmaking, you'll get your ass kicked several times. If you think people are too childish to try again a PvE if it's challenging, they'll probably react the same when they lose a match in PvP.

What you are doing is expecting the players to cater to the game, rather than the game catering to the players.

Problem, there are lots of different players. A game is supposed to help new players improve, not asking skilled players to give up any kind of expectation. Especially for an MMO with a subscription fee, players that can't show the dedication required to improve are the most likely to unsub for good when the next trendy game launches.

As for Eureka, sorry, but that content was designed with an old school vibe, for players who wanted something different than the usual content. If it's not your gig, the healthy solution is simply not to do it and still play just about everything else in XIV (Like you did). They didn't bring Savage down to expert difficulty so that people didn't have to "learn how to play it".

[KaivaC]

Generally speaking I would agree but at the same time. It's easy to see why players end up under geared. The levelling process in the game is so fast it's more effort than it's worth to keep your gear up to date in a big way.

Even with levelling dungeons guaranteeing gear drops the problem stems from the fact that in the time you've done a couple of runs of say bardam and got maybe 2 or 3 items from an entire set. Your already high enough to be going into doma castle. And by the time you've got a couple of pieces from there your off to castrum abania.. and if rng keeps giving you the same kinda things. Like head and feet then the rest of your gear simply doesn't get upgraded nor is it worth upgrading because of how quick it will be out levelled.

Roulettes also don't help. If you're doing them daily then most of the time you'll be synced down to something so it really doesn't matter if your using lower gear.

It's pretty much the same issue players have with the endgame treadmill. Gear is replaced too quickly even in endgame.

You make a fair point. However, gating off by ilvl throughout 61-69 creates a problem as well because your essentially forcing players to run the dungeon a good 8 or 9 times to get the full set, and if you're lucky enough with RNG, the weapon. That's not a good way to keep players invested, even with the HQ gear that MSQ will give you.

[Dzian]

You make a fair point. However, gating off by ilvl throughout 61-69 creates a problem as well because your essentially forcing players to run the dungeon a good 8 or 9 times to get the full set, and if you're lucky enough with RNG, the weapon. That's not a good way to keep players invested, even with the HQ gear that MSQ will give you.

Oh I agree. Besides if you made players have to run a dungeon 8 or 9 times to get the item level for the next one. The problem then becomes that players would end up getting so much exp being level 70 before they even completed a level 65 set of gear

[KaivaC]

Oh I agree. Besides if you made players have to run a dungeon 8 or 9 times to get the item level for the next one. The problem then becomes that players would end up getting so much exp being level 70 before they even completed a level 65 set of gear

Exactly. The solution is making gear last longer. Off the top of my head, I can think of gear that you can actually improve - say, the Shisui gear at 270. Have it grow with your character until Doma Castle. Tweak the system that we had with the HW relics and allow us have a certain amount of points to pour towards certain substats as we strengthen the gear (in story, call it adjusting the gear with experience of structural gear weaknesses). Same thing with your AF armor at 290. Let us strengthen it until the first big threshold, which is 320. Let the tomes allow us to improve base stats to a certain degree, like maybe 7-8 points. Nothing that encroaches on raider's gear, but something that actually makes gear worthwhile. Nothing game changing enough that you'd need to rely on theorycrafters, but just flexible enough to just toy around with some builds. It lessens the strain on developers trying to create new gear for each and every dungeon, and lowers the duplicate sets that we keep on getting.

Is this idea good? Maybe, maybe not.

But it's an idea that helps with the gear system we have now, and plus, it would actually encourage players to get a full set. Does it resolve the exp issue? Probably not. But surely somebody at that development team can think outside of the box on this.

I know I didn't really address you - but it got me to thinking abut a few things.