Don't ask, don't tell - Relationship Thought Experiment

[HyoMinPark]

If the person isn't actually trans and just lied to you, then yeah you have a right to be angry.
But if the anger is specifically about the fact that they aren't the gender you thought (and not that they lied to you about something important) that's kind of transphobic.
Because if you're only angry about their gender, you're essentially saying who they are never mattered.

Basically it's the difference between:
"I'm upset because a person I cared about was dishonest"
and
"I'm upset because this person no longer adheres to my fantasy"

Except I would be angry about both. They lied to me, and they lied about their gender knowing full well my preferences (if this were actually a serious relationship, such would have been disclosed long before), and I think people are well within reason to be upset about that. You’re saying “it’s like who they really are doesn’t matter”, but you’re also saying “the other party’s personal preferences for romantic relationships and romantic partners don’t actually matter because they should just accept the person romantically regardless of gender”. I personally have no qualms about whatever people identify themselves as, but if they lie to me about it, I’m not going to be called a transphobic individual because I’m angry that they lied about their gender to me.

I honestly feel like you’re bring a bit too much tumblr into a thread that probably isn’t even about transphobia at all.

[Azurymber]

The disconnect here is that you are saying this is about trans people when it isn't. Until you can understand what it's actually about I'm done talking to you. These discussions surrounding actual trans people require much more nuance than you'll find on these forums.

If someone comes into this thread and wants to say that trans women dont deserve the same respect that cis women have i will shut them right down with you. The problem is that hasn't happened.

You're assuming that if someone is expressing themselves as a "different" gender online on a regular basis they are doing it for some nefarious reason.

I'm assuming that -most- (not all) people expressing themselves as a "different" gender online aren't doing it for nefarious purposes. They are just being themselves. And I'm saying it's transphobic to call them "fake" for it. Regardless of how they express their gender in real life.

I'm also saying that the proposition that men "Identify" and "invest" in females online with "expectations" outside of a relationship is sexist.

[NessaWyvern]

Basically the TL,DR of this:

Guy who plays a female uses EB to try to find relationships with people that are the majority made up of dudes that don't want to have a relationships with other dudes.
Those dudes get upset when they find out the truth.
OP instead of feeling like he did something wrong, (essentially catfishing to have some kind of relationship), suggests maybe everyone else should just change the way they think and feel instead.

I met my husband in this game, and if we hadn't been truthful about our genders from the start, then we wouldn't have ever had a real relationship.
I didn't play this game to find someone, but I ended up finding someone anyway along the way, and I am eternally grateful for it.
These faux relationships are just wasting the time of those who were looking for a real one the entire time, and emotionally scarring them in the process.

[Azurymber]

Except I would be angry about both. They lied to me, and they lied about their gender knowing full well my preferences (if this were actually a serious relationship, such would have been disclosed long before), and I think people are well within reason to be upset about that. You’re saying “it’s like who they really are doesn’t matter”, but you’re also saying “the other party’s personal preferences for romantic relationships and romantic partners don’t actually matter because they should just accept the person romantically regardless of gender”. I personally have no qualms about whatever people identify themselves as, but if they lie to me about it, I’m not going to be called a transphobic individual because I’m angry that they lied about their gender to me.

I honestly feel like you’re bring a bit too much tumblr into a thread that probably isn’t even about transphobia at all.

I'm not saying you would be transphobic for that.
I'm not saying you should accept someone for who they are if you aren't into them.

I'm saying that assuming gender is more important for -everyone- than any other lie is transphobic.
Like how this thread emphasizes gender as being a core issue with online relationships while ignoring all the other things people lie about.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm assuming that -most- (not all) people expressing themselves as a "different" gender online aren't doing it for nefarious purposes. They are just being themselves. And I'm saying it's transphobic to call them "fake" for it. Regardless of how they express their gender in real life.

Men playing female characters =/= they are transgender. Maybe they just want to play a girl in a video game. The “faux female” comment, again, I feel was about males that play female characters - that then calls into the OP’s reasoning as to why they would just blindly assume the person behind the avatar was of the same gender, which, to me, is just naivety, because we all know there are both males and females who prefer to play the opposite sex in video games for a myriad of reasons. They aren’t transgender simply because they want to play a toon of the opposite sex.

I'm not saying you would be transphobic for that.
I'm not saying you should accept someone for who they are if you aren't into them.

Except your “it’s like who they really are doesn’t matter” comment kind of does imply just that.

I'm saying that assuming gender is more important for -everyone- than any other lie is transphobic.

People who blindly assume that the player’s gender is the same as their character are simply naive. It’s well known that males play females and that females play males all the time in games.

Like how this thread emphasizes gender as being a core issue with online relationships while ignoring all the other things people lie about.

But you brought in the transphobia talk though... no one else. Just want to point that out.


Again, there is way too much tumblr in this thread for me.

[Skivvy]

Like how this thread emphasizes gender as being a core issue with online relationships while ignoring all the other things people lie about.

You made it the focus..?

[Azurymber]

Men playing female characters =/= they are transgender. Maybe they just want to play a girl in a video game. The “faux female” comment, I feel was about males that play female characters - that then calls into the OP’s reasoning as to why they would just blindly assume the person behind the avatar was of the same gender, which, to me, is just naivety, because we all know there are both males and females who prefer to play the opposite sex in video games for a myriad of reasons. They aren’t transgender simply because they want to play a toon of the opposite sex.

I agree with this.
But i think it's a bit of a stretch to assume the OP is specifically talking about men who play female characters and not people who express themselves as female.
It should be pretty obvious to anyone that some men play female characters, and some females play male characters.

if the op is really that naive then yeah, my posts are irrelevant.

[Azurymber]

You made it the focus..?

I said
3. If someone identifies as a girl, they are a "real girl". Acting like someone isn't a real girl because they were born male is transphobic. It's not every trans person's responsibility to wear a sign around telling you they used to be a diff gender.

in response to the use of "faux female" and "real girl"

The fact that so many people assume anyone born male, expressing themselves as a girl online, is doing it because they are "a confused gay" or "for the gil" and not because they are just being themselves kind of demonstrates the transphobia that I'm talking about. Like it's this internal assumption that trans people aren't real, or that they are so rare, it would never be a legitimate explanation.

The simplest and most realistic/rational explanation for why someone would express themselves as a "different" gender (from their biological-sex) online long-term across friendships/relationships is because they are being themselves. Sure it's not every single case. But it's the most "likely" reason why.

[NessaWyvern]

If someone identifies as a girl, they are a "real girl". Acting like someone isn't a real girl because they were born male is transphobic. It's not every trans person's responsibility to wear a sign around telling you they used to be a diff gender.

A lot of people want real-life relationships to come out of those online relationships. And deception involving biological/chromosomal gender in relationships in real life has lead to convictions, at least in the UK. At some point, you have to reveal it.

Besides, keeping secrets is never healthy for relationships.

Also, you should watch the series "Cat fishing" sometime, you can watch all the heartache that is caused from not being honest about things online.

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that so many people assume anyone born male, expressing themselves as a girl online, is doing it because they are "a confused gay" or "for the gil" and not because they are just being themselves kind of demonstrates the transphobia that I'm talking about. Like it's this internal assumption that trans people aren't real, or that they are so rare, it would never be a legitimate explanation.

The simplest and most realistic/rational explanation for why someone would express themselves as a "different" gender (from their biological-sex) online long-term across friendships/relationships is because they are being themselves. Sure it's not every single case. But it's the most "likely" reason why.

You’re assuming everyone that plays a character of the opposite gender is transgender now, though. Maybe they want to play something different. Maybe they’re just doing it for fun. Maybe they play the opposite gender because they find them attractive, in the way people find virtual characters attractive. Them playing a toon of the opposite gender does not automatically equate to them “being themselves”, as in “I actually identify with this gender”. And you have no quantifiable data to support this as the “likely” reason either. It’s all just assumptions with no basis.