DPS Enmity controls

[wereotter]

The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).

This is not correct. Certain DPS jobs actually DO lose to utilize their enmity tools. Monk has to spend time building up 5 chakra stacks, which is something that they, in general, only gain as a 50% chance on a critical weapon skill, and then once they have all 5, they have to choose to use it on an enmity dump with a 2 minute cool down instead of using it on a high-potency off global cool down attack. So, as a monk, I have to look at it like this. I'm giving up a 358 potency off global cool down, meaning the tank's DPS combo will have to produce more damage than that in order for it to be worth it for the party as a whole to use.

Similarly samurai can only trigger their enmity dump by timing the activation of Third Eye within 3 seconds of taking damage, and then they too have to sacrifice using a proc for a higher potency off global cool down move in order to dump agro. This, to go back to the original poster's question, is part of why you might struggle with samurais. If they're not taking damage, they have no means of dumping agro. Similarly to monk, as well, the tank added DPS needs to out damage the damage lost to a samurai for not using this skill, if the tank can't do more damage than the samurai OGCD, then the tank should do more enmity combos.

All that said, diversion is really powerful, so if a DPS is using that skill and still pulling enemies off the tank, then it's the tank's job at that point to maintain agro as the DPS have done their part.

[Kabooa]

So, as a monk, I have to look at it like this. I'm giving up a 358 potency off global cool down, meaning the tank's DPS combo will have to produce more damage than that in order for it to be worth it for the party as a whole to use..

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it.

Regarding when to dump and when to push, instead consider this.

Assuming some standard DPS numbers of 6k for melee and 4k for tank, when out of tank stance, that means the DPS is doing 6k TPS and the tank is doing 4k TPS.

If we set the tank's starting threat after the opener, considering 15 seconds of shadewalker from a ninja, then at, say, 20 seconds, the tank should have amassed approximately 260k threat (7k opener ninja, 6k opener tank) while the monk has amassed 16k (8k opener, -90% from diversion)

Edit: Above numbers are wrong, but we'll do it anyways since it favors the tank (mo threat)

At a starting difference of 244k, a monk at 6k and a tank at 4k, the monk will catch the tank at threat at approximately 2 minutes and 2 seconds. Ignoring Diversion and shirk, for the sake of the argument, if the monk instead continues to push damage, the tank must swap to a threat combo or be overtaken.

A paladin using their threat combo is replacing Royal Authority, and dealing close to 20% less damage, but gains a threat multiplier on Savage And Rage of Halone.

The paladin DPS doing this, we'll say, drops down to 3600 to maintain this. (Less Royal Authorities, less ideal Reqqycat timings) and will likely stay at here.

If the monk instead pops Purification, at current threat amounts (732k) the monk dumps 146k, and instead allows the paladin to maintain the extra 400 DPS for 72 seconds. Even assuming the Monk DCrits Forbidden Chakra, we'll say at 18k, the Paladin dealing 400 more DPS for 72 seconds is 28,800 damage.

So effectively speaking, if Diversion or Shirk are not available, you cost the party less damage by just using your damn Purification instead of forcing Threat combos, or worse, a tank stance.

[wereotter]

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it.

Regarding when to dump and when to push, instead consider this.

Assuming some standard DPS numbers of 6k for melee and 4k for tank, when out of tank stance, that means the DPS is doing 6k TPS and the tank is doing 4k TPS.

If we set the tank's starting threat after the opener, considering 15 seconds of shadewalker from a ninja, then at, say, 20 seconds, the tank should have amassed approximately 260k threat (7k opener ninja, 6k opener tank) while the monk has amassed 16k (8k opener, -90% from diversion)

At a starting difference of 244k, a monk at 6k and a tank at 4k, the monk will catch the tank at threat at approximately 2 minutes and 2 seconds. Ignoring Diversion and shirk, for the sake of the argument, if the monk instead continues to push damage, the tank must swap to a threat combo or be overtaken.

A paladin using their threat combo is replacing Royal Authority, and dealing close to 20% less damage, but gains a threat multiplier on Savage And Rage of Halone.

The paladin DPS doing this, we'll say, drops down to 3600 to maintain this. (Less Royal Authorities, less ideal Reqqycat timings) and will likely stay at here.

If the monk instead pops Purification, at current threat amounts (732k) the monk dumps 146k, and instead allows the paladin to maintain the extra 400 DPS for 72 seconds. Even assuming the Monk DCrits Forbidden Chakra, we'll say at 18k, the Paladin dealing 400 more DPS for 72 seconds is 28,800 damage.

So effectively speaking, if Diversion or Shirk are not available, you cost the party less damage by just using your damn Purification instead of forcing Threat combos, or worse, a tank stance.

I don't play SAM enough to be able to say how good it was or not, but it does still stand that the job literally can not dump enmity without timing Third Eye nearly perfectly (since server latency has to register the skill was used, and then it only applies the buff for 3 seconds)

Monk, however, I do still stand by. As a monk, diversion is pretty much mandatory, and it's available for every other burst phase, meaning monk agro management isn't terrible. But if it comes down to using Forbidden Chakra, or Purification, especially under Riddle of Fire where it has an effective potency of 465, unless one or two agro combos loses a tank more damage than the skill puts out, which should be in the range of about 15,000 damage, then it's better for the tank to manage that agro than for the monk to drop a skill.

Your argument implies that I'm saying a tank should just sit in tank stance and do agro combos. I'm not. I'm saying that if I, as a DPS, will put out more damage using one of my damage skills than a tank will lose by doing an extra enmity combo or two, then the tank should be adjusting to the situation rather than the DPS.

[Kabooa]

Your argument implies that I'm saying a tank should just sit in tank stance and do agro combos. I'm not. I'm saying that if I, as a DPS, will put out more damage using one of my damage skills than a tank will lose by doing an extra enmity combo or two, then the tank should be adjusting to the situation rather than the DPS.

My argument implies a few things, but a Dump is more damage for the party because it's threat the tank doesn't have to generate. A tank in tank stance doing threat combos does stupid threat, but we aren't doing that. We're looking at tanks in DPS stance who have to swap to aggro combos to prevent it from ripping off. A tank in tnak stance doing threat combos is something around 64% of the outgoing DPS of a DPS tank but doing somewhere around 400% more threat.

Even in the above example diversion is ready again (thus extending the time to overtake) and shirk is available at least once if not twice (unless required for a swap).

Both purification and threat combos / tank stance are not required, -but- if they were and for some reason these tools are not available, you cost your party less damage by just dumping. Factoring in Riddle of Fire for this monk in the example puts the Chakra at 23.4k, which is still short of 28.8k for forcing the tank to do aggro combos instead of dumping.

also it's worth noting that Dark Knight loses less damage here than paladin would in this scenario, while Warrior loses close to nothing assuming they don't have to do an IR window and have Unchained ready.

I have to clarify that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out some pretty generic cases.

[Valcarde]

Seigan is trash. Don't try and defend it..

Hissatsu: Seigan is more kenki efficient than Hissastu: Shinten.

Hissastu: Seigan is 13.3 potency per Kenki
Hissastu: Shinten is 12 potency per Kenki

If you have the Third Eye proc and need to blow it on a Merciful Eyes, you're losing out on the extra potency per kenki that Hissatsu: Seigan would provide per kenki.

[Kabooa]

Hissatsu: Seigan is more kenki efficient than Hissastu: Shinten.

Hissastu: Seigan is 13.3 potency per Kenki
Hissastu: Shinten is 12 potency per Kenki

If you have the Third Eye proc and need to blow it on a Merciful Eyes, you're losing out on the extra potency per kenki that Hissatsu: Seigan would provide per kenki.

Seigan is trash. Critical and Direct Hit variance is going to have a larger determining factor on your final DPS than trying to use Seigan. The amount of micromanagement for the reward is awful.

Top rank Chadernook Samurai
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[Lilyth]

Snip.

Read my post again. I've never said Purification/Third Eye didn't cost anything to their respective jobs to use. Actually, these two specific abilities' additional effects were only recently added into the game, and obviously they do have a cost. But I was not referring to them.

What I actually said is that all DPS have access to aggro management tools that do *not* cost them anything. Also known as Diversion, which is ridiculously OP right now.
The only real exception to this are BRD and MCH who only have Tactician and Refresh as their enmity tools, both which actually have beneficial effects to the group and could be necessary in a specific point in the fight. However, as of now, that's not the case in any fight in the game for Tactician. Not to mention how ridiculously hard it is to TP starve at level 70, even after dying. It's more than safe to say that you can at least rely on Tactician, and even Refresh, to drop aggro.

Also, monks can make use of Purification in a fight without losing any dps if the boss jumps long enough for them to gather 10 chakras. Same for DRG and Elusive Jump.

The bottom line is very clear here, enmity management is a party responsability. Nobody is expecting the Samurai or the Monk nor anyone to go out of their way and play bad just so the Tanks can be trololo lazy and stay on DPS stance. What people are expecting though, is that you do the bare minimum. Press the small and sparkly green button that costs nothing every time it comes off CD, and everyone will be happy.

[Aana]

Read my post again. I've never said Purification/Third Eye didn't cost anything to their respective jobs to use. Actually, these two specific abilities' additional effects were only recently added into the game, and obviously they do have a cost. But I was not referring to them.

What I actually said is that all DPS have access to aggro management tools that do *not* cost them anything. Also known as Diversion, which is ridiculously OP right now.
The only real exception to this are BRD and MCH who only have Tactician and Refresh as their enmity tools, both which actually have beneficial effects to the group and could be necessary in a specific point in the fight. However, as of now, that's not the case in any fight in the game for Tactician. Not to mention how ridiculously hard it is to TP starve at level 70, even after dying. It's more than safe to say that you can at least rely on Tactician, and even Refresh, to drop aggro.

Also, monks can make use of Purification in a fight without losing any dps if the boss jumps long enough for them to gather 10 chakras. Same for DRG and Elusive Jump.

The bottom line is very clear here, enmity management is a party responsability. Nobody is expecting the Samurai or the Monk nor anyone to go out of their way and play bad just so the Tanks can be trololo lazy and stay on DPS stance. What people are expecting though, is that you do the bare minimal. Press the small and sparkly green button that costs nothing every time it comes off CD, and everyone will be happy.

Basically this.

Everyone should use their EZGG enmity tools they have available. Push 1 button, NINETY PERCENT enmity reduction during your opener (and basically on CD after that) does wonders for enmity control. If you dont do that, your bad and pulling down your team, period. No excuses for any job with diversion. None. You can piddle around complaining about 3rd eye all you want, but you have diversion, so use it.

That said, in an organized group Tank stance is purely a pulling tool and defensive tool. No organized group needs tank stance because DPS are puling their weight on enmity, ninja's are smokescreening whm, both tanks are shirking, etc.

However when I go into a pug I assume everyone sucks (because most do) and watch the enmity bar. If im getting crept up on I ask for a shirk. If OT is unresponsive then I drop two Defiance/unchained butchers combo on its face and coast to victory and take one for the PUG. PUGS are not statics and you often have to do everything yourself. Or you can be a stick in the mud, wipe, whine at the party for sucking. You might even be right, but being right is irrelevant cuz you put your pride and epeen above victory and now you have to spend more time with this terrible pug or watch it ragequit. Who's really the looser there? You and your time. Congrats. Pugs=knock that chip off your shoulder and do what you need to do in order to win and move on with your life. If you want to 'be right' more than 'win' then come post on the forums, not join pugs.