What if we got the Sub-Job System in FFXIV?

[LineageRazor]

it basically became not "mix and match Jobs to your heart's content", but more "find the sub that gives the best benefit to your main Job and only use that", specifically stat increases and especially abilities that it could use.

This is true, but it was actually made even worse when coupled with the skill-up system. If it wasn't bad enough that taking BLM as a subjob only gave you BLM's spell set up to level 37 (later 49), but you couldn't even cast THOSE spells effectively because your Black Magic skill was ALSO capped to what it would be at level 37. Fire III might not be a top-tier nuke, but it could still be useful as a bit of DPS between Cure spells, or during periods of immunity to physical attacks - if not for the fact that the low Black Magic skill meant enemies resisted it into the single digits. Therefore, you equipped BLM for Stun, Warp, and if your job happened to have Enfeebling skill, Sleepga.

The same went for weapon proficiency. DRG sub to let you use spears for some piercing damage? Sorry, your Polearm skill is capped to the point where you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

While it's true that everything would boil down to one "best" subjob for any given job, there was potential to make certain subjobs situationally uesful. The skill system killed many combinations that could have been interesting and useful, even if they wouldn't have been generally optimal.

Yeah, the FFXI subjob system was pretty deeply flawed. While I think the system has promise conceptually, in practice I wouldn't say that FFXI did it right.

That was the cross-class system pre-SB. It worked for a little bit, but it was much worse with that "illusion of choice" problem than the current role system.

Particularly since so many of the available cross-class skills were ludicrously unuseful. PLD can cross-class CNJ's Cure - but thanks to low MND, cures for only a couple hundred HP. DRG can cross class MRD's Skull Sunder - but why would DRG want an Enmity-generating tool, especially when not able to combo it for extra damage? Many jobs were LUCKY if they could pick five useful skills out of the set available to them.

[Freyt]

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

First, these are just examples. If you don't like the examples, then envision an example that you do like. Second, Astrologian and Scholar picking Raise would be immensely dumb, considering they already have revival spells. Third, any tank or physical DPS, in addition to BLM, could utilize it.

The point is that if you're confident in your ability to stay alive but don't want to join as a healer, then you can account for the shortcomings of those who are likely to die especially if it is the healer. It isn't so powerful considering the only job that could utilize it with Swiftcast here is BLM, which simply puts it on the same level as RDM and SMN.

[Zsolen]

That was the cross-class system pre-SB. It worked for a little bit, but it was much worse with that "illusion of choice" problem than the current role system.

Oh I know all about that, but if it wasn't for that, I would not have started leveling a bunch of classes. I wouldn't be all 60s then or all 70s now.

[Delmontyb]

what does tried and true mean? jobs in XI are hugely unbalanced.

It means that it's a system that's well known and understood, been in several games in many different forms.

[Ameela]

First, these are just examples. If you don't like the examples, then envision an example that you do like.

If AST gave you Lightspeed every single caster would take it as it's too good of a skill to pass up, it literally makes a majority of casts instant for 10 seconds and reduces MP costs by 50% with 0 downsides.
I have a hard time thinking of what SCH could even give considering how much that job is about the synergy between all its different skills. This is also the case for Red Mage apart from Embolden I guess, unless a sub job would literally mean letting you use all of a job's skills in conjunction with your current ones which is just... horrible for balance purposes...
Everything else is just stuff that was already in the old cross-class system anyway: Internal Release, Mantra, Blood for Blood...
I don't like any example I or anyone else can think of, as this is a silly subject in my opinion, every job should be tightly designed in a way that it can work well with its own kit, otherwise you're just making every job feel like the same thing. This is a problem games like FFVI and FFVII face: when everyone can have every skill, what seperates the characters from each other (or in this case, the jobs)
I think they should just remove all this cross-class and role skill nonsense and give every job a fully functional kit that fits their class identity and is fun to use.

It isn't so powerful considering the only job that could utilize it with Swiftcast here is BLM, which simply puts it on the same level as RDM and SMN.

No it doesn't, have you ever thought about why BLM doesn't have a raise when every other caster in the game does?
It's because raising someone is meant to be a huge MP dump, you're not supposed to do it often, now what core part of BLM's kit goes against this design choice I wonder...
Also, in this hypothetical scenario, BLM is the only class in the game that would benefit from having White Mage as a sub job, as there's no other rez-less jobs with an insta cast, and you'll be hard pressed to find even healers doing slow raises outside of 24-mans.

[KageTokage]

As much as I'd like a sub-job system, there'd always be inherent balance issues, even there weren't any abilities that directly boosted DPS available.

IE, BLM could give any job access to Aetherial Manipulation, Manaward, or Convert, but the first of the three would likely be the most popular due to allowing you to reposition before or after mechanics faster so you can DPS longer.

I'd take slightly more imbalanced classes for the sake of having meaningful options available, though.

[Xau]

hmm, dunno, i believe it can be aplied a sub-job if they make some limitations to the system, basically make what players can't use subjob skills on the harder content and just leave it for the most casual content(normal dungeons, normal raids and so on) where party composition do not matter that much, as well nerf or make unable to be used certain skills(lightspeed, inner release and so on)

[Delmontyb]

hmm, dunno, i believe it can be aplied a sub-job if they make some limitations to the system, basically make what players can't use subjob skills on the harder content and just leave it for the most casual content(normal dungeons, normal raids and so on) where party composition do not matter that much, as well nerf or make unable to be used certain skills(lightspeed, inner release and so on)

There is a lot of things they can do, this doesn't have to be the Sub Job system of FFXI, but with the fact you can play the jobs on the same character, they could do their own take. The cross-class skills system was junk, and yes I feel that they would have to make system adjustments overall, but this could be where jobs get specializations.

As a quick example. Imagin if you play WTM, and white mage could pick 1 of 3 jobs to sub job, rather then all 15... each "sub job" acts as a path, that has the skills, traits, etc to take. Helps make balance easier.

[Freyt]

I don't like any example I or anyone else can think of, as this is a silly subject in my opinion, every job should be tightly designed in a way that it can work well with its own kit, otherwise you're just making every job feel like the same thing.

You're under the mistaken assumption that sub-jobs have to provide abilities that already exist. I think you could think of some kind of scenario involving sub-jobs that you would appreciate, and if you can't, then I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough.

[Dyvid]

With the fact that the cross-role skills are going to give us all 10... why not with 5.0 shift the system to something tried and true within the Final Fantasy universe?

I get that there would be adjustments, and I also don't agree that the cross-class system is like the sub job system.

It's a lot to ask, but I'd love to know your thoughts? I think there will easily be a "preferred" sub job for each job or role... But we have that now with cross role, etc... Having been playing Octopath Traveler, I just love the sub job system...

Thoughts?

We tried this when FFXIV first came out and people voted on just have a job instead to trying to make one from cross class skills. FFXI had a subjob system but in the end you were just pigeonholed to just a certain subjob.