What if we got the Sub-Job System in FFXIV?

[Ameela]

Choosing a job without any form of resurrection is less concerning when it can be made available to you regardless.

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

[Enkidoh]

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

This^ This is why the sub-job system in FFXI did not work as well as it seemed - it basically became not "mix and match Jobs to your heart's content", but more "find the sub that gives the best benefit to your main Job and only use that", specifically stat increases and especially abilities that it could use. Some Jobs due to restrictions simply were terrible when subbed (like BRD), and there were some that were pretty much "the meta" - if you had anything other than this when trying to do anything in the game you were laughed at for being "gimp", even if the sub you chose was actually useful (I don't know how many times I got harassed as a WAR main equipping MNK as a sub, simply because players were abusing NIN as a tank sub job for Utsusemi and refused to consider anything else - MNK was actually a very useful and powerful sub Job for WAR.).

Because of this nonsense, I am now vehemently against any kind of sub Job system being implemented here in FFXIV, and luckily it seems Yoshi has also seen this problem and is mindful of it, and thus why you will not see anything of it's like here.

[Sairys]

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

With just what's in the post, why would any healer pick White Mage?

It doesn't seem to be suggesting taking anything away from current class kits, so a healer picking WHM would mean having two res buttons. Lightspeed feels like the better example.

[Ameela]

With just what's in the post, why would any healer pick White Mage?

It doesn't seem to be suggesting taking anything away from current class kits, so a healer picking WHM would mean having two res buttons. Lightspeed feels like the better example.

Then that'd mean White Mage is completely useless as a sub job for every job aside from maybe Black Mage and then it's a choice between whatever other job offers the biggest benefit. You already see this with the current cross-role system - Eye for an Eye isn't a bad ability by any means, but there are simply much better options so there's no reason to ever take it.

[Sarynth]

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

Could you imagine whm/sch though :3

[Freyt]

It'd also mean White Mage is the only sub job worth taking on any healer so what's the point?

First, these are just examples. If you don't like the examples, then envision an example that you do like. Second, Astrologian and Scholar picking Raise would be immensely dumb, considering they already have revival spells. Third, any tank or physical DPS, in addition to BLM, could utilize it.

The point is that if you're confident in your ability to stay alive but don't want to join as a healer, then you can account for the shortcomings of those who are likely to die especially if it is the healer. It isn't so powerful considering the only job that could utilize it with Swiftcast here is BLM, which simply puts it on the same level as RDM and SMN.

[Ameela]

First, these are just examples. If you don't like the examples, then envision an example that you do like.

If AST gave you Lightspeed every single caster would take it as it's too good of a skill to pass up, it literally makes a majority of casts instant for 10 seconds and reduces MP costs by 50% with 0 downsides.
I have a hard time thinking of what SCH could even give considering how much that job is about the synergy between all its different skills. This is also the case for Red Mage apart from Embolden I guess, unless a sub job would literally mean letting you use all of a job's skills in conjunction with your current ones which is just... horrible for balance purposes...
Everything else is just stuff that was already in the old cross-class system anyway: Internal Release, Mantra, Blood for Blood...
I don't like any example I or anyone else can think of, as this is a silly subject in my opinion, every job should be tightly designed in a way that it can work well with its own kit, otherwise you're just making every job feel like the same thing. This is a problem games like FFVI and FFVII face: when everyone can have every skill, what seperates the characters from each other (or in this case, the jobs)
I think they should just remove all this cross-class and role skill nonsense and give every job a fully functional kit that fits their class identity and is fun to use.

It isn't so powerful considering the only job that could utilize it with Swiftcast here is BLM, which simply puts it on the same level as RDM and SMN.

No it doesn't, have you ever thought about why BLM doesn't have a raise when every other caster in the game does?
It's because raising someone is meant to be a huge MP dump, you're not supposed to do it often, now what core part of BLM's kit goes against this design choice I wonder...
Also, in this hypothetical scenario, BLM is the only class in the game that would benefit from having White Mage as a sub job, as there's no other rez-less jobs with an insta cast, and you'll be hard pressed to find even healers doing slow raises outside of 24-mans.

[Freyt]

I don't like any example I or anyone else can think of, as this is a silly subject in my opinion, every job should be tightly designed in a way that it can work well with its own kit, otherwise you're just making every job feel like the same thing.

You're under the mistaken assumption that sub-jobs have to provide abilities that already exist. I think you could think of some kind of scenario involving sub-jobs that you would appreciate, and if you can't, then I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough.