So about Summoner...

[TraeSnow]

snip

This is actually why I believe SMN has gotten to the top. I'm not sure if people realize how bad it was for SMN in ARR. Any fight that lasted longer than...I think like 3 mins? The SMN would run out of MP (There was no Lucid back then). There were literally dozen party finders of "LF DPS No SMN Allowed" for CoB. Because they spent 2 years as the worst DPS in the game, I feel like SE just over tunes them just to be on the safe side - and then goes back and nerf if needed.

Also, I know they don't "balance" around how hard a class is to play anymore, it used to be hard classes did more DPS due to them being harder to play, but SMN was branded as the hardest class to play in SB (There was a poll and it is the general consensus). So if the Hardest Job in the game is doing the same DPS as one of the easiest (RDM) then why bother with SMN?

[Karshan]

Read the most of it. What started the feud is how the topic starts. The title and first posts make it a rant against SMN. It was uncalled for, and some people here are in a defensive stance only because of that.

Can't really disagree with the facts exposed by Dual or Zerathor : it is above BLM (except on "dummy" fights) and RDM. But this is not a problem with SMN, because SMN is where it SHOULD be : competitive with OTHER classes. Finally a caster is making it, so we should be looking at how would we bring BLM and RDM in a similar spot, ant it took awfully long before the discussion actually went there. ANd on that part I agree with most of Megguido interventions.

Some people talk about the past : I agree it's relevant to how you feel toward a class and it's balance, a sense of justice that most demons except death are finally gone (I was a SMN in ARR and HS too), but someone said balance should focus on how things are now and they are right.

Things are : SMN is more OP than other casters BUT in line with meta classes, so what we need is more cutting edge on the two left behind casters.
- RDM pay Verraise WAY too much (although powerful, this tool has an expiration date : the moment your team starts rocking it. The low personal DPS remains however)
- BLM lack specific utility, or damage, but they have a tendancy to be heavy handed on damage buff/nerf and take time to correct it, so a bit puzzled on what would be best.

Plus, I agree selfish DPS just won't do it in a game where mutual buffing synergy windows are everything and FFlogs is the alpha and omega of IG identity (also see : "I'm a bard and not going without a DRG")

Just my 2 cents, far from being a top tier player but I think I can understand the stakes behind

[Capn_Goggles]

Sounds like DRK "mains" that complain WAR is doing everything better than DRK.

Probably because WAR does everything better than DRK, as does PLD

Cause, yeah, progression is definitely not a big part of raiding. /s

It's only a part of raiding, and RDM goes from useful to *nearly* useless in the transition, where other jobs still remain competitive barring "selfish DPS", because the only two things that matter in this game are your damage and your ability to make other people do more damage. The apex of the argument is that RDM stays almost exclusively as an ultra-casual training-wheels job for its lifespan when everybody else has traded theirs in by 60 at the latest, so while everyone is pulling stunts on their mountain bikes RDM is still stuck doing circles on flat pavement, and the reason for this is because its only utility is foam-padding when people are still learning the fight.

If you don't want to destroy your DPS when raising as a SMN, you have to keep Swiftcast and use it when you're either not in DWT or in Bahamut phase.

You are correct that SMN has a greater opportunity cost for resurrecting people than RDM, but if you're slamming out resurrections like RDM is capable of you probably aren't terribly concerned with your output at that point. Furthermore, the usefulness of swiftcast on SMN is fairly exaggerated, because while it's certainly handy to use and very easy to turn into a DPS gain, SMN only really needs it to resummon their pet and for resurrection, and the former is not nearly as big of a deal with the insane reduction in cast time it got.


Please understand, however, that the criticism for RDM in this regard is not an attempt to downsize what it can already do, but to expand what it yet cannot do. I am of the opinion that every job should have some justification for being brought along to every fight, even if some jobs are more suited for it than others.

[Megguido]

Probably because WAR does everything better than DRK, as does PLD


It's only a part of raiding, and RDM goes from useful to *nearly* useless in the transition [...] .

From personnal experience, we spent way more time on progression than on "farming" (cause yes, killing 4 bosses once a week can hardly be called "farming"). We spent 3 hours a day, 3 days a week on progression, and about 3 hours once a week on actually taking down O5S to O8S. The progression is a part of raiding, but it's far from being a small one.

That's not the appropriate topic, but it really looks like people are underestimating DRK's defensive kit. But hey, I'm not against another buff on my main job :^). 30% damage reduction on a 60s cooldown isn't enough, pls SE.

Please understand, however, that the criticism for RDM in this regard is not an attempt to downsize what it can already do, but to expand what it yet cannot do. I am of the opinion that every job should have some justification for being brought along to every fight, even if some jobs are more suited for it than others.

That's a good point, and it is exactly what makes balancing jobs hard. Because balancing jobs around a single content can be very dangerous. Even if SE succeeds to make every job and every composition doing nearly the same level of damage for (e.g.) UwU, what if some jobs get completely out of control in lower level or lower skill content ? It would also be an issue if RDM is doing nearly twice the damage of a MNK at lvl 50, as a consequence of lvl 70 buffs to make it on-par with SMN.

Though I'm severely biased on the matter, since SMN is my main DPS job. Though it could be doing less damage than a RDM, I would be playing SMN nonetheless.
From my point of view RDM is kinda badly designed. Easy-to-play jobs are cool and all, but having nearly half of your offensive GCD spells being copies of each other... I expected more about white and black mana than just press black button if gauge is white, press white button if gauge is black (I know there's more intricacies about RDM, but a good part of its gameplay is aroud that).

[Capn_Goggles]

snip

Progression is most definitely a part of raiding, and certainly an important part, but again, I'm merely stating that RDM is outright useless outside of it regardless of how good it is in progression. Unfortunately, no small part of this is precisely because it's so good in progression, and another part of the problem is that it's competing against jobs with universally desired utility as opposed to situational utility.

Also, DRK's defensive kit is only a portion of its issues. The main problem is that it has to work harder to do the kinds of things that come to warrior and paladin near-effortlessly, and in many cases it's still inferior due to conflicting or outright bad design. Dark Arts spam, stance-locked abilities/effects, a complete lack of burst, and living dead being nearly useless at best are all glaring issues with its toolkit, without even getting into its bizarre MP misalignment and completely gutted kit. It's not nearly as dramatic as the list would imply, but they are major issues that need to be addressed regardless.

[Megguido]

Progression is most definitely a part of raiding, and certainly an important part, but again, I'm merely stating that RDM is outright useless outside of it regardless of how good it is in progression. [...]

Also, DRK's defensive kit is only a portion of its issues. The main problem is that it has to work harder to do the kinds of things that come to warrior and paladin near-effortlessly, and in many cases it's still inferior due to conflicting or outright bad design. Dark Arts spam, stance-locked abilities/effects, a complete lack of burst, and living dead being nearly useless at best are all glaring issues with its toolkit, without even getting into its bizarre MP misalignment and completely gutted kit. It's not nearly as dramatic as the list would imply, but they are major issues that need to be addressed regardless.

Now that's some hyperboles.

RDM is great in progression and with "not-top-level-players". Because you can prog and clear O8S while being somewhat a casual player. Then, when you clear the content consistently, RDM doesn't become "useless", it becomes "not optimal".

On DRK side (lulz), the main issue IMO is people complaining its too easy to play because of the 1-2-3 spam meme, but can't play it properly because it's actually more complicated than that. Dark Arts is only spammed in the opener, overall it's about 6 DA a minute. SMN is using like 20 Ruin spells a minute and is far from being broken. If you mindlessly spam DA, then you'll eventually run out of MP, and you're doing things wrong anyway.

This argument "but I have to press more buttons to do the same thing than XXX" is really terrible imo. Someone on this topic already mentionned that SE doesn't balance jobs on their difficulty. If I'd want a tank job than press only two buttons to do damage, I'd be a WAR main. DRK is the only high-cpm fast-paced tank, please don't dumb it down to WAR's level. If I follow your reasoning, how come RDM should have as much damage as SMN while being easier to play and less buttons to push, and no pets to manage ?

a complete lack of burst

I played both PLD and DRK this tier, and PLD's DPS is streamlined as much as DRK's. I must say that WAR's burst is so great, noodle mode for 80s after unleashing your IR. DRK can actually manage its own "burst" windows, pooling ressources for Trick Attacks for example. It's not because you don't have a "10s +50% dmg buff" that you don't have any burst.

and living dead being nearly useless

First consider that both WAR and DRK need healing after their invuln. It's just that WAR doesn't require 100% HP back. You won't leave WAR at 20% HP after Holmgang cause it will die after the next auto.
Second, LD is longer, and its duration only starts when dropping to 1 HP, not when you actually push the button.
Third, we definitely live in a world where Lustrate, Exogitation, Essential Dignity, Benediction are a thing. If two healers cannot bring 65k HP back in 9 full seconds, there's an issue with said healers, not Living Dead.

Overall, learn more, play smarter, and you'll see that DRK's kit isn't as gutted as you think it is.

Also, sorry for being out of topic.

[Capn_Goggles]

Now that's some hyperboles.

RDM is great in progression and with "not-top-level-players". Because you can prog and clear O8S while being somewhat a casual player. Then, when you clear the content consistently, RDM doesn't become "useless", it becomes "not optimal".

"Not optimal" in this case meaning contributing the least DPS to the raid compared to any other job except for *maybe* samurai and having nothing else to offer because its two pieces of utility are a really crappy damage buff and a safety net. While useless is a hyperbole, calling it "not optimal" is just being pedantic when it offers nothing to the group that isn't done significantly better by other jobs.

If I follow your reasoning, how come RDM should have as much damage as SMN while being easier to play and less buttons to push, and no pets to manage ?

That's an excellent question, the answer to which is "it shouldn't". When it boils right down to it, RDM and SAM both require a lowered skill floor and a raised skill ceiling, a necessity to them being able to perform at the potential they need to stay competitive with other jobs.


On the sidebar of the sidebar:

On DRK side (lulz), the main issue IMO is people complaining its too easy to play because of the 1-2-3 spam meme, but can't play it properly because it's actually more complicated than that.

DRK was more complicated than that, back a few patches ago when TBN had a 5 second duration; the reason it was complicated was because you were praying to catch two auto-attacks within its duration to pop it, otherwise you just wasted resources on nothing. Compare this to HW's Dark Knight, which was yet even more complex. It had to be much more conscious of its resources, had a much higher APM without resorting to constantly forced double-weaves, and generally had more things to manage at once in terms of DoTs, Procs, and debuffs. Now the only complexity in playing DRK is having enough MP to use TBN, not capping on resources, and staying in engagement rage, all being things that apply generically to literally every melee job. It's funny that you harp on mindlessly spamming Dark Arts, because that is precisely the optimal way to play the job.

DRK is the only high-cpm fast-paced tank, please don't dumb it down to WAR's level.[...] I played both PLD and DRK this tier, and PLD's DPS is streamlined as much as DRK's. DRK can actually manage its own "burst" windows, pooling ressources for Trick Attacks for example. It's not because you don't have a "10s +50% dmg buff" that you don't have any burst.

All three tanks are equally easy to play, and anyone trying to claim which is the hardest by this point is like winning a competition for who can eat the most crayons. Fundamentally, DRK's burst is inferior because it stretches out the damage increase over a longer period of time, where PLD and WAR are able to concentrate their damage for key moments (trick attack, buffs). I like blood weapon, because who *doesn't* like going fast? Unfortunately, many fights don't like this type of burst, and most raid buffs don't either.

[Shiroe]

Drk is still by far the "hardest" tank to master.., balancing the MP (even for a tank stance swap)

[Wilbow]

That's an excellent question, the answer to which is "it shouldn't". When it boils right down to it, RDM and SAM both require a lowered skill floor and a raised skill ceiling, a necessity to them being able to perform at the potential they need to stay competitive with other jobs.

Sorry for being blunt, but that's a horrible perspective. Jobs should be balanced, period. Let's go through the reasons why:


1) People generally pick jobs for playstyle and aesthetics. Speedrun groups pick for utility, mobility, and total DPS. Difficulty isn't generally close to the biggest factor as to what job is picked. Ultimately, the IDEAL goal of balance should be to make it so that every job is equally desired in groups. Having a job where you cannot perform at the same level as everybody else by design, even if you were godlike, is LITERALLY the opposite of that. Many people wouldn't even bother investing in a job that won't be able to perform at the top level or feel "punished" for doing so, and people who love the job from previous FFs and/or love the gameplay will rightfully feel bitter for being arbitrarily chosen to suck. There are only losers with this philosophy.


2) Difficulty is hard to measure accurately. Unless a straight 1-to-1 comparison, which is nearly impossible because jobs have different combinations of mechanics by design, it's nearly impossible to quantify or even estimate unless you do something like compare DPS versus percentile using FFLogs. And the thing is that even those estimates can be skewed by certain design choices. Low percentile WARs have higher DPS than low percentile DRKs, IIRC; this is largely because WAR is centered around small periods of burst and thus isn't punished nearly as hard by not optimizing uptime. Does this mean that WAR is easier than DRK? No, not necessarily. Maybe one has a higher skill floor and a lower skill ceiling. Which job deserves higher DPS? If one deserves higher DPS accordingly, how MUCH more DPS does it deserve? Since we can't quantify difficulty, it's not like we can say "This job is X easier, so it should do Y less DPS."


3) Difficulty is contextual. Is melee or caster easier? Well, that depends on the mechanics of the fight, doesn't it? Are we talking about progression or farm? As a designer, when you sit around and make a job, you don't change potencies, utilities, or mobilities on a fight-by-fight basis. People generally don't switch around jobs between fights in a static, in part due to comfort and in part due to focusing on gearing one job at a time.

Also, I want to focus more on this "being good for progression only is okay" line, because that's bullcrap. Is WAR and SCH only good in progression or farm? What's that, you say? They're good at both? But that can't be! We CLEARLY want some jobs to suck half the time, while the rest suck the other half of the time. Isn't that F-U-N?!

Everybody loves being "viable" (i.e. a liability, but able to be carried in the right comp), don't you know? SAM/BLM/RDM are "viable" and therefore don't have a right to complain. We should make sure our WAR and SCH overlords are working 24/7 to keep them in line and tell them how great they have it. Ungrateful jerks. I mean, both WAR and SCH couldn't shut up in early SB when they were "viable", but it's okay when they do it because they're clearly special. /s


4) Difficulty is subjective. Is DRG or MNK easier? I don't know, do you suck more at dealing with timers or positionals? How well can you tank a floor? I mean, do I get to have higher potencies at RDM than everybody else because I'm miraculously shit at it but surprisingly click well with SMN? No, I didn't think so.

Seriously, SMN is right about where it needs to be; maybe a LITTLE high, but it's hard to say because SE tends to enforce/encourage bringing a caster LB and SMN is simply the best caster right now, so it's often coming regardless. SAM/BLK/RDM need slight buffs to be desired. Just raise SAM/BLK DPS by about 4-6% (most "utilities" people actually care about have a DPS value anyways), buff RDM DPS slightly (and fix embolden to not be so...weird), and the problem is solved. No, it's not "complicated". That's usually just a weasel word people like to use to avoid having to defend an opinion. No, they don't even necessarily need more utility or mobility, although that's another avenue to fix things (albeit more work and riskier, two things SE doesn't like). Their total DPS contribution is too low compared to everybody else, and everybody knows it. JUST. FIX. IT.

[Capn_Goggles]

I think you may have misinterpreted my stance on this issue, which is pretty understandable given that my replies are wordy in an already super wordy topic, but to clarify on a few of them:

Difficulty isn't generally close to the biggest factor as to what job is picked. Ultimately, the IDEAL goal of balance should be to make it so that every job is equally desired in groups. Having a job where you cannot perform at the same level as everybody else by design, even if you were godlike, is LITERALLY the opposite of that.

Difficulty isn't a primary factor, and it probably isn't even a secondary factor, but when I say difficulty I should probably be using the term "skill ceiling", because that's really what I mean. A job should feel perfectly fine to play under normal conditions, but there needs to be room for people to feel like they're getting better if you ask me. Part of this argument, is that in order for Red Mage (and SAM) to be perform at the same level as other jobs, they're going to need a higher skill ceiling; it's hardly reasonable to let two jobs perform at the same level when one requires an absurd level of optimization to do what it does while the other one can roll its face on the keyboard to blow fat DPS out. It's an issue both with SAM and RDM, where they don't perform nearly as well as they should on the top end of the spectrum, while simultaneously rewarding bad (frankly, abysmal) gameplay due to their overly simplistic and forgiving designs. I understand that there are players who don't ever touch harder content like savage, and that's more than okay, but accommodating players who aren't as skilled or dedicated should be the job of the content and not the content of the job.

Since we can't quantify difficulty, it's not like we can say "This job is X easier, so it should do Y less DPS."

Difficulty is, well, difficult to quantify, but a bit of common sense goes a long way when judging overall difficulty. DRK vs. WAR is a bit of a wash because they really aren't far off now in terms of gameplay since they made WAR much more unga bunga with 4.2, even if the changes were necessary to eliminate a lot of dumbness in the job. I think a more apt comparison would be BLM vs. SAM; Black Mage has a much higher skill ceiling and a much, MUCH lower skill floor than Samurai, combined with the fact that it benefits less from some raid buffs than Samurai due to its nature as a caster, and I'd say it should be doing a solid chunk more DPS at the higher ends.

Also, I want to focus more on this "being good for progression only is okay" line, because that's bullcrap. Is WAR and SCH only good in progression or farm? What's that, you say? They're good at both? But that can't be! We CLEARLY want some jobs to suck half the time, while the rest suck the other half of the time. Isn't that F-U-N?!

I agree wholeheartedly on this point, it's silly to think being good in prog and useless otherwise is a good thing, and Red Mage is the only job in the game right now with this dichotomy. Some jobs (PLD, WHM) are better at progression than other jobs due to their toolkits and straightforward playstyle, but they're still more than serviceable for farm even if they're not necessarily optimal (we're pretending DRK is in a much better spot than it actually is for the sake of argument right now).