So about Summoner...

[Capn_Goggles]

I've acknowledged the same issue for a long time (quite a few people have), but that's not a direct "buff" change. That's just a mechanical change to the rotation that would indirectly buff RDM's damage by a bit. When people here are asking for damage buffs, I highly doubt this is what they were referring to.

That's a cop-out answer, but also one that manages to be presumptive and self-gratifying at the same time. The complaints toward RDM's performance were about its competitiveness at higher levels of optimization and skill, a situation in which alteration to its rotation to align with raid cooldowns presents a direct buff to its damage output, but you've taken it upon yourself to presume that it's really potency buffs they're after.

[Sunako]

Damage is not really problem with BLM. BLM can do like 700 more dps on dummy than SMN. Problem is that BLM not have any party synergy, majority of players can not keep their uptime on 100% and they lack party utility.

Edit: My idea would be let BLM stack more than 1 foul(like 3 fouls) and make it instant cast. That would help both casual players and hardcore players. You could save the bursts for party utility like trick attack, it would be easier save aoe damage for add phase and would boost mobility + easier weave ogcds. Another thing blm need imo is 1 foul stack before match start. BLM opener is really lackluster because they have to wait first 30 sec before foul is ready and at that point all opener buffs are already gone. I think there should be the way gain 1 foul stack before match start. Utility would be if manaward would be aoe shield that absorb like 15% damage from partymembers and 30% self.

[Sunako]

Damage is not really problem with BLM. BLM can do like 700 more dps on dummy than SMN. Problem is that BLM not have any party synergy, majority of players can not keep their uptime on 100% and they lack party utility.

Edit: My idea would be let BLM stack more than 1 foul(like 3 fouls) and make it instant cast. That would help both casual players and hardcore players. You could save the bursts for party utility like trick attack, it would be easier save aoe damage for add phase and would boost mobility + easier weave ogcds. Another thing blm need imo is 1 foul stack before match start. BLM opener is really lackluster because they have to wait first 30 sec before foul is ready and at that point all opener buffs are already gone. I think there should be the way gain 1 foul stack before match start. Utility would be if manaward would be aoe shield that absorb like 15% damage from partymembers and 30% self.

I find it funny they actually execute part of my idea, that I suggest year ago. You can stack 2 fouls and new alternative "singletarget foul" become instant cast.

[Wayfinder3]

This is kinda getting out of hand. RDM mains put down your pitch forks because he’s right for the most part.

RDM being balanced around verraise sucks but it does allow healthy synergy between all 3 casters which is the big picture. Yes SMN gets to be the lucky child but it’s STILL balanced. If you’re angry that casters have to fight for a slot. That’s fine, but to say casters aren’t balanced is wrong. Verraise is powerful, it’s a tool that allows you to “see” more mechanics even if you wipe. (Nobody mentioned this). I understand you guys want change but, the change you’re asking for is only going to put SMN and BLM in the same position we’re supposedly in. I’ve even mention that a change I’d like is for manafiation to give 3 free enchanted gcds because RDM burst windows are too inconsistent. How about we talk about that, is it a bad idea or a good one. Getting angry at one guy for stating what’s basically the truth isn’t going to help RDM.

[Dualgunner]

Verraise is powerful, it’s a tool that allows you to “see” more mechanics even if you wipe. (Nobody mentioned this)..

This is a tool that's only so useful though, and its use can be just as easily overblown as it can be underappreciated. Also, within the last page I bring up a potential change I would like to see that is along the same lines as your own suggestion, that being a cooldown ability for RDM to better line up their burst windows with the party's.

[Wayfinder3]

Another thing that should be mentioned is that, I believe it’s fine if you want to ask for buffs to make RDM a meta option, nothing wrong with people wanting their mains to be the best. I know many players who stick with a job in its lows and watched as some of those jobs even became meta options. PLD/SMN since HW. Lets be patient and see what the future has, SMN is meta today but tomorrow it could be RDM or, BLM or, SMN can continue to reign supreme. Alternatively, none of them could be meta and it wouldn't be the first time.

[Maero]

Another thing that should be mentioned is that, I believe it’s fine if you want to ask for buffs to make RDM a meta option, nothing wrong with people wanting their mains to be the best. I know many players who stick with a job in its lows and watched as some of those jobs even became meta options. PLD/SMN since HW. Lets be patient and see what the future has, SMN is meta today but tomorrow it could be RDM or, BLM or, SMN can continue to reign supreme. Alternatively, none of them could be meta and it wouldn't be the first time.

Why should we be patient? We are far enough into the expansion and SE have enough data by now to at least look at the job instead of just making changes/buffs to every other job. Some jobs have seen multiple changes

[Wayfinder3]

This is a tool that's only so useful though, and its use can be just as easily overblown as it can be underappreciated.

Yes but you can’t give appropriate value to something based off of how niche it is. Verraise can work in or out of prog and this should be balanced around the idea of raising players with the greatest of ease. You can go into detail about mp but there are tools on other jobs that they’re balanced around to handle that. RDM is a victim of its utility, ask for them to remove it. Then RDM becomes a great value SMN or vice versa. A lot people like to pin verraise as a curse which it is but it’s also the only thing keeping the job relevant and, the casters relatively balanced.

i'll give an example, $25 in paper money is generally better than $25 worth of pennies however, thats only because of how convenient it is but, the $25 worth of pennies is still equivalent to $25 dollars in cash and thus demands respect regardless of how cumbersome or flawed it actually is to use $25 worth of pennies so, the value is the same but it's just less efficient. This is essentially rdm out of progression, it's less efficient and loses some value in that right but it can still function the exact same way and situations where it could work are still applicable unless you're speed killing where resurrection is completely irrelevant.

If RDM gets a buff and loses verraise or it is changed to function as a normal rez spell and it's not stronger than SMN. Do you honestly believe the job will be better off, if so. then what of SMN since these 2 jobs will now officially have the same EXACT niche. Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment. The only way verraise can be completely worthless is if you're in an environment where death in general is unacceptable and the only time that happens is during speed killing and, thats only applicable to less than 1% of the player base. This is pretty much what xxPheNoMeNais trying to say. RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM

[Dualgunner]

Verraise gives the job an identity because nobody is speed killing with SMN because it can rez and, it's illogical to attribute rez in a speed killing enviorment as the reason for why SMN is better than RDM in that enviroment.

Lol, okay what on earth? Who said that raise is why Summoner is better than RDM in a speedkilling environment? Summoner is better than Red Mage anywhere out of bleeding edge world first blinder than a bat progression because its damage dwarfs RDM's, to the point where numbers look comparable to a BLM's numbers, while at the same time providing damage utility on top of it.

That said, I'm not saying I want RDM to be competitive in a speedkilling environment. I would just like the ability to optimize further so I don't feel quite so far behind myself if I were to play a job I like less than RDM.

RDM's do have powerful utility, it's just not the utility that some want and thus should ask for something indicative of that, not nerfing SMN or overbuffing RDM

If we're going to argue subjective value of verraise, I get about as much use out of it as I would a SMN's raise, because my group wipes up in order to understand prior mechanics better before working forward through future mechanics. Sure, I could zombie us forward and we could "see" mechanics further on, but the group would be on the back foot trying to recover, and no meaningful progression will happen.

Being able to spam raises also isn't anywhere near overpowered enough to be mandatory when there are just as many if not more Summoners clearing UwU (not to mention UCoB) and world first UwU was a SMN, not a RDM. For the most part, a Summoner is just as good in progression as a Red Mage, and they're just as good if not better outside of it.

The issue this thread is raising is Summoner is competitive both in progression and in speedkilling, whereas its peers are either only competitive in the former, or are competitive in neither. Before I'm accused of saying "nerf SMN," yes, I think SMN is in a good place because the caster role is fighting MCH and MNK for the fourth slot.

Now, if we're done talking about raise spam, which is an ability I don't think any DPS should have...

I'll repeat my stance:

Summoner is in a good place. It is in the area of balance that RDM and BLM should also inhabit. Red Mage needs a buff in the areas of lining its bursts up with raid cooldowns; an ability akin to Machinist's "Cooldown" would be ideal, as it would allow us to line up with everybody with every minute-to-minute burst. This would allow Red Mage to be able to optimize their damage outside of progression and bump their numbers up ever so much. This cooldown change is something Phenomena agreed with, also.

[Wayfinder3]

RDM being able to pick of rez without needing Swiftcast is also a very powerful trait, there are times where this could come up. SMN is really only better than RDM in farm and maybe clear runs. Brute forcing mechanics to have more insight is powerful regardless of the fact if your group doesn’t find it beneficial to them again the concept and idea is enough to give RDM some credit here

World first or even subsequent clears don’t tell you the whole truth. Many groups prog with RDM and switch to SMN once progression is over, phenomena even admitted that he does this, so for all we truly know, RDM could have more representation then the logs lets on.