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  1. #1
    Player
    JCharms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    194
    Character
    Maybelline Charmers
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Culinarian Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi View Post
    No, other game simply resort to DPS burns, and when everyone can do damage, then there is no tank or healer, you just rely on consumables. Your wallet size ends up being the only obstacle to overcoming content.
    Not really, other games without the trinity still have tanky and healy builds and are used, but not necessary if you have a lot of good dps so theres lots of variables, but all viable.
    Quote Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi View Post
    The problem is not that the roles exist, the problem is that people come to the game and have an entitled world view that they should be able to play the content without any teamwork. Hence you have annoying stupid things like green dps and ice mages because players want to play it in a way that it was not supposed to be played.
    This is exactly the problem, its a very old trope now, and its simply the lack of vision and devs not knowing or unwilling to think outside the box. Though as you mentioned, the trinity here is a sort of hybrid anyway, its a pity they didnt keep going all the way with it.
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  2. #2
    Player
    KisaiTenshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,775
    Character
    Kisa Kisa
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by JCharms View Post
    Not really, other games without the trinity still have tanky and healy builds and are used, but not necessary if you have a lot of good dps so theres lots of variables, but all viable.
    Other games that do "skill tree" type of builds often don't let you switch without some kind of time/experience/money penalty, thus the incentive is to make additional characters instead. Ever wonder why some games trot out "X,XXX,XXX players!" instead of "XX,XXX active players" ?

    FFXIV's 2.x jobs have more in common with FFV and FFX-2, where you have to level up the job independently of anything else. Other games usually make you put points into skills from a skill tree, and that often results in "bad builds" that can't do any content well, or "glass cannon min-max" builds which are good at exactly one piece of content and terrible at everything else. These are also too confusing for players who don't understand the unlock sequences.

    Or in the case of F2P games, the cash shop is often designed to be the only way to fix bad builds by buying cash shop items to reset skills. "Sorry you were stupid, please pay 19.99 for an amnesia tonic"

    But other games also let you simply make all content a faceroll by outleveling it. The Levelsync in FFXIV is what makes the content last. If you can simply get to level 70 and then solo all the ARR and HW content, that would of course make the dungeon content pointless. Dungeons in FFXIV 2.x+ are a completely different experience from other MMORPG games. Now I do wish SE would tighten up the levelsync/ilevel sync so that it has to be played at essentially minimum ilevel once cleared to get any additional rewards from it. Really, SE should remove "undersized party" as an option at all unless the content has been cleared at minimum ilevel.
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  3. #3
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi View Post
    No, other game simply resort to DPS burns, and when everyone can do damage, then there is no tank or healer, you just rely on consumables. Your wallet size ends up being the only obstacle to overcoming content.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCharms View Post
    Not really, other games without the trinity still have tanky and healy builds and are used, but not necessary if you have a lot of good dps so theres lots of variables, but all viable.
    This. And in all but a couple Korean Action-MMORPGs, any such items are on a CD and plenty abundant from general gameplay, provided one isn't attempting to heal out constant white damage they're not avoiding. Deep potion pockets can allow lazier gameplay, but generally will make no difference in what is actually possible, especially given that dps checks in such games usually aren't harsh. Instead, it's the (effectively) one-shots, or bursts of damage too strong for any potion, that actually do you in, unless you're substantially underperforming and don't pull out of range to recover.

    Why is there this myth that anything that requires non-tanks to dodge and participate in movement for more than just DDR and spread/stack AoEs, respectively, must be a micro-transacting zergfest?

    There's nothing about all players being able to contribute in every way (even if to different extents each) that denies them interdependence. It's just a kind of specialization that can redefine itself over the course of events in a fight -- i.e. in the gameplay -- rather than solely being an out-of-combat decision.

    In the majority of cases that amounts to simply added capacity: one can, and is expected to, make use of kiting, suppression, crowd-control, and baiting (more than just depositable/targeted AoEs), all in addition to dealing damage and avoiding or reversing damage (to be) taken.

    In every case it's simply an increase to complexity available when people are permitted more than just their pre-fixed "roles". Whether the game takes full advantage of that, or still has the same heights and depths of healing or tanking toolkits available alongside those other areas of complexity, is the only real deciding factor.
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