So about Summoner...

[Sunako]

As a RDM main, verraise is a cancer. I agree, if RDM could be more like the Bard or Ninja of the casters, having low DPS in exchange for high utility, I wouldn't mind at all.

Ofc you would not mind. If rdm would have ninja/dragoon level of dps utility it would become another ninja/dragoon/bard. Now think about it if you are random dps and wanna recruit party members, do you wanna take summoner that boost your dps 60 - 80 dps or do you take rdm that boost your dps 100 - 120. You are like not really big difference, but if rdm would boost your dps like 200 you would be like, wow my parse will look bad if I dont play with rdm. Thats why I think boosting utility for rdm is really bad choice. Majority of mch/bard not wanna play without dragoon because their dps numbers looks bad without it, even it not really affect their raid dps performance. Players are too much centered around fflogs.

[Dualgunner]

Ofc you would not mind.

Of course I wouldn't. It would be quite lovely to not be forced into being a Summoner because right now Summoner is all that and a bag of chips.

If rdm would have ninja/dragoon level of dps utility it would become another ninja/dragoon/bard

It has their level of damage. So right now it's ninja/dragoon/bard but without the support. Whereas SMN is more comparable to MNK; high damage with some party damage utility. They also do comparable damage.

Now think about it if you are random dps and wanna recruit party members, do you wanna take summoner that boost your dps 60 - 80 dps or do you take rdm that boost your dps 100 - 120.

Versus right now where you're a random dps where you want to take SMN because BLMs are a gamble of being absolute gods or absolute trash, and RDM from the best to the worst still couldn't keep pace with similarly skilled SMN.

You are like not really big difference, but if rdm would boost your dps like 200 you would be like, wow my parse will look bad if I dont play with rdm.

Actually no, I don't think that's a small difference at all. Your numbers went from 100-120 to 200 though, mind your exaggerations here because 60-80 vs 200 is a big leap compared to 60-80 vs 100-120. 40 extra damage per party member, using your conservative estimates, would be 280 party dps increase; that's almost an entire hypercharge RDM would have over SMN. So yeah, being able to buff the party would be a nice new place for RDM to sit.

Thats why I think boosting utility for rdm is really bad choice.

So what would you have us do or suggest?
Any DPS gains we ask for is encroaching on BLM territory. Any time RDM asks for DPS buffs we're met with "But you're the SUPPORT caster, not the damage caster."
When we suggest support buffs we're met with posts like this.
And no, "prog caster" is not something that I can stomach. It just means RDMs are forced to swap to BLM/SMN after prog, and BLM/SMN are forced to play RDM for prog, and that's not fair for anybody involved at all.

Majority of mch/bard not wanna play without dragoon because their dps numbers looks bad without it, even it not really affect their raid dps performance. Players are too much centered around fflogs.

It's human nature to see a leaderboard and say "Hey, I want to hit the top of that." Challenge is something a lot of people thrive on.

Remember that right now RDM is weaker than SMN by a very VERY large margin. In fact, in a few fights BLM is weaker than SMN. BLM and RDM need to be competitive with SMN, and that has to happen through buffs to the former two because right now the latter is strong enough to break into the meta. With respect to RDM specifically, its damage is down near Bard's and Ninja's, without the same level of support that they bring.

So I suppose the question comes back around: if they do the damage of a Ninja and Bard, why shouldn't they have the same level of support they bring?

[Sunako]

So what would you have us do or suggest?

I would rather boost rdm personal dps than boost their offensive utility.

[Dualgunner]

I would rather boost rdm personal dps than boost their offensive utility.

Okay. Now we're encroaching on BLM territory because the only thing BLM offers is damage, and now its competitors do near BLM levels of damage and both have utility. Balance is against BLM unfairly.

EDIT:

Decided to look up my RDM compared to one of my peers' SMN, out of curiosity (both logs were in the 88th-90th percentile):
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...fFcnB9ZRpT2q/2
Total contributed DPS: 751
DPS before contributions: 6,335
DPS after: 6,730

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...MW1cRKm3Qgzj/3
Embolden Contributed DPS: 316.2
DPS before contributions: 5,688
Total damage out: 5,609

Obviously there are other factors that go into this, as with any support, such as "How much do team members take advantage of the buffs?" However, based on at least one anecdotal comparison of high-level casters, it's plain to see SMN beats RDM out hard in both damage and utility.

[Sunako]

Okay. Now we're encroaching on BLM territory because the only thing BLM offers is damage, and now its competitors do near BLM levels of damage and both have utility. Balance is against BLM unfairly.

I did not said you have to boost rdm to blm level. You have to boost dps like 500 if you want it be blm level. Like 200 - 300 dps would be enough. And also if players want to see summoner more punishing via movements ruin 2 potency should be nerfed and ruin 3 potency boosted. But that would nerf scholar at same time.

[Dualgunner]

First, see my edit, second:

And also if players want to see summoner more punishing via movements ruin 2 potency should be nerfed and ruin 3 potency boosted. But that would nerf scholar at same time.

BLM and RDM need to be competitive with SMN, and that has to happen through buffs to the former two because right now the latter is strong enough to break into the meta.

I haven't (this patch) said that SMN needs nerfs.

[Sunako]

EDIT:
Decided to look up my RDM compared to one of my peers' SMN, out of curiosity (both logs were in the 88th-90th percentile):
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...fFcnB9ZRpT2q/2

I m also impressed how much utility that summoner bring from radiant shield because fastest speed kill not have even half of that.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...jQv89DcXBnG/18

If i check my own partyfinder runs it not bring anywhere near like that.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...cVfJmqy8vb7G/4

Wanna tell me how that summoner have over 600+ radiant shield damage?

[Duskane]

SMN is good i dont think it needs a major nerf but it needs to be toned down a little bit for a class with its Utility ,mobility and just the raw power behind it all

i would rather RDM become a more support like class
its overall DPS still needs to be upped a bit but it be nice if the class had some depth or something to spice up its game play

Manafication could easily become a 90-60 second cd that alone would help a little bit in the DPS department restoring a bit of MP aswell would be nice since RDM only way is lucid dream

emboldment needs to be a full potency buff not this losing stacks should also make healing spells better too

i also think the balance guage should give a slight damage boost while Crystals are in the red
while giving a damage debuff if crystal goes blue or white to make it a little more punishing if you spam black or white spells a bit much

And adding Monomachy from pvp as a boss debuff

[Dualgunner]

I m also impressed how much utility that summoner bring from radiant shield because fastest speed kill not have even half of that.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...jQv89DcXBnG/18

If i check my own partyfinder runs it not bring anywhere near like that.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...cVfJmqy8vb7G/4

Wanna tell me how that summoner have over 600+ radiant shield damage?

Beats me. I could comb through his logs and give you a guess, that'd take me a bit.
EDIT: 541 is nowhere near "not even half" of 751, and the added damage can be explained by the longer fight duration since more casts of Radiant Shield went off.
Worth mentioning in your run you linked, your physical dps weren't very up to par at all.

Also I am going to issue an apology and a correction: I mistakenly linked my Guardian kill log as opposed to my Chadarnook kill log, here's the Chad kill log:
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...FBgHwJhaCGn3/2
6,009 damage out
322.3 from embolden
6,037 total.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...RGN64PHgCyp/19
Here's another SMN speedkill (rank 14), the SMN here had more support than Avery did (589.1), even if their group didn't kill as fast.

Then let's look at Avery: 541 dps of support (what do you mean not even half of that btw >.> 541 is actually close to Mira's own score), 7000 DPS out, 6800 when buffs are accounted for.

Compare to Jump Man: https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...g4LyPc1R9Yw/21
7865!! Holy shit right, RDM OP.

Until you take away all the obvious padding, he drops to 6571. But let's look at a more reasonable Jump Man comparison:
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...Dag2rZM8N9z/20
6,481 out, 421 Embolden, 6,243 total.

[Sunako]

EDIT: 541 is nowhere near "not even half" of 751, and the added damage can be explained by the longer fight duration since more casts of

Sorry i mean vulnerability damage is not even half of that. Summoner have 487.6 vulnerability dps while even in fastest speed kill there is 215 vulnerability dps. Even that summoner you linked have only 223 vulnerability dps. 1min longer fight not double value of your vulnerability no matter how I look at it. There is something wrong with that. I have never seen that high number o6s from that.

Phantom Train is purely padding against 8 targets so no point discuss about that.