DPS Stance vs Tank Stance Including Healer DPS

[Reynhart]

Then what's the difference?

The difference is that we have only one significantly more efficient setup instead of several roughly equally effective ones. So, basically, any player who doesn't like aggressive tanking can be a "hindrance", however skilled he is.

But, and I can only really speak personally, if I am a top healer I'm not exactly going to be thrilled that I now won't be because my tank is a top tank, I'll have to sacrifice my dps to keep him alive.

You'll just have to find a turtle tank to pair with, allowing you to DPS even more than now, because guess what ? Some players likes turtle tanking.

What is your suggestion for people who would prefer to play as it is now?

Party with a complementaty player. Do you have any suggestion to healers or tanks who don't like to be pressured to DPS ? Because right now, they're the one who have to deal with it, because the game offers no other competitive option.

[Tex_Mex]

I would personally like to see some encounters that not only require the increased defense given by Tank Stance, but also do away with Enrage Timers, so that parties can actually choose a more defensive setup if they wish.

I'm not saying that every encounter should be this way, but it would be nice to have some more balanced variety.

[Kabooa]

I would personally like to see some encounters that not only require the increased defense given by Tank Stance, but also do away with Enrage Timers, so that parties can actually choose a more defensive setup if they wish.

I'm not saying that every encounter should be this way, but it would be nice to have some more balanced variety.

Bear in mind these types of encounters need to be more dynamic and punishing on the standard ability use, else you're just doing Normal Mode raids.

[Tex_Mex]

Bear in mind these types of encounters need to be more dynamic and punishing on the standard ability use, else you're just doing Normal Mode raids.

You are absolutely right. This is one of the reasons that we have so few encounters like this. They require more time and are more difficult to design. Not every encounter needs to be designed that way, but just using enrage timers for all of them is pretty lazy design IMO.

[DaulBan]

I would personally like to see some encounters that not only require the increased defense given by Tank Stance, but also do away with Enrage Timers, so that parties can actually choose a more defensive setup if they wish.

Enrage timers are generally not an issue for non-ultimate content unless you have multiple deaths in a run, so I doubt getting rid of them would serve to actually help the supposed turtle tank.

[Tex_Mex]

Enrage timers are generally not an issue for non-ultimate content unless you have multiple deaths in a run, so I doubt getting rid of them would serve to actually help the supposed turtle tank.

I'm not necessarily trying to "help" the turtle tank. I like being an aggressive tank as much as the next guy. I would just like for there to be more variety in encounter design. Instead of EVERY encounter rewarding players for choosing the most aggressive composition/playstyle.

[whiskeybravo]

Do you have any suggestion to healers or tanks who don't like to be pressured to DPS ? Because right now, they're the one who have to deal with it, because the game offers no other competitive option.

Yea, play the game like you want. I can only speak for myself and the static I manage, but even this week we have a friend (healer) that has been struggling to get v7s down, so we invited him to run with us for the weeklies. He told me he was a pure healer and asked if I had a problem with that. I said "No, we have enough DPS in the group you shouldn't need to worry about that, just keep us alive". It unfortunately didn't work out as planned, for various reasons, but none-the-less a very real and recent example of how it can be handled in the current climate. Now it's a bit different if it wasn't a "friend" and let's say it was someone applying for a healer spot. We'd try them out, analyze their heals and dps at the end of the night and talk to my core about it. The main thing we will about is if there was any perceived healing issues (mechanics, aoe & tank healing, etc) and secondly look at their dps and compare to our main healer. I've never once even thought about calling a healer out for their damage (unless it's a situation where people are dying/lacking heals and I see them over there casting Broil...) but that's just me. As for pugs I have little to no initial expectations so as long as we clear that's really all that matters IMO.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I'd say they don't really have to be. They're just mathematic adjustment to your damage taken/dealt. Gameplay don't have to be related to the stances.

Respectfully disagree. We're in 2018 and modern design should push us away from things with no decision points. Stuff like Fast Blade is bad design IMO. It's a GCD that does absolutely nothing. You always do the exact same thing immediately after, and whatever you did before doesn't matter. It's not fun to press.. If something isn't fun, it should be improved.

Crusader Strike is a pretty bland ability with respect to WoW, but it generates a resource, has a short CD with charges, shouldn't sit unused, or be used to overcap said resources.

That's a decent number of decision points in a generally pretty bland skill.

Since what matters is raid damage, one "easy" solution is that what you lose as damage can be compensated by the other party members. For healers, by giving more room to DPS, or DPS risking ripping hate and thus having to hold back if the tank don't build enough enmity in DPS stance.

This is exactly what I tried to accomplish. It allowed tanks to cover for weaker healers by shifting resources into mitigation, or it allowed them to push DPS, if they had stronger healers and weaker DPS. It allowed it without relying on boring/binary toggles either.

[Reynhart]

Yea, play the game like you want.

If that was the solution, we wouldn't have any meta, parser obsession and percentile based fflogs.
You may be a kind-hearted player willing to help those who struggle without any high expectation, but the competitive playerbase of FFXIV isn't. And this playerbase is the only one where "DPS stance vs tank stance" matters. So, again, for the competitive aspect, I suggest having more options, and for the non-competitive aspect...no one cares what you do.

Stuff like Fast Blade is bad design IMO. It's a GCD that does absolutely nothing. You always do the exact same thing immediately after, and whatever you did before doesn't matter.

First, Fast Blade is not the issue. The issue is having three combos but only two worth using, that share 2/3rd of their skills. Second, the initial step of a combo is a constraint you have to plan every time you want to use something that's not a combo. If you could spam enhanced WS over and over, you wouldn't have to ask "Do I use the next GCD to heal myself, do an AoE on multiple targets, pull back this target far away, stun this target or do I keep my combo up on a single target ?".

[whiskeybravo]

If that was the solution, we wouldn't have any meta, parser obsession and percentile based fflogs.
You may be a kind-hearted player willing to help those who struggle without any high expectation, but the competitive playerbase of FFXIV isn't. And this playerbase is the only one where "DPS stance vs tank stance" matters. So, again, for the competitive aspect, I suggest having more options, and for the non-competitive aspect...no one cares what you do.

Competitive turtle tanking. That's a first :P

And, it's not so much that I'm a kind hearted player. I raided during Gordias and Midas (pre-nerf) before finally being driven away from the game because of how stressful it was to keep replacing underperforming players (even by my own standards I wasn't that good, I completely gave up tanking because of the "str tank" meta). After taking a year+ off I came back to the game shortly before expac, originally not even planning to raid because I didn't want to fall back in the trap of feeling like it was a 2nd job instead of a video game. Thankfully SE re-tuned the savage raids (I hear creator wasn't that bad but wasn't around for it) and now it's about the only thing I look forward to anymore. So, while I always try to do the best I personally can, I've just totally tried to take as much stress out of the equation as I could and not hold my friends/static members to the same standards. We have fun and at the end of the day that's all that really matters IMO

(I do still want my oranges tho >.<)