And so it begins again

[MoroMurasaki]

You quite clearly care very much.

I will preface with the fact that I am a habitual paranoid WHM, as is evident in the 15 page fiasco of a thread that is still being replied to in these same forums surrounding the 4.3 AST buffs. I started that. If you haven't dropped by go ahead, if that doesn't convince you that I'm inclined to be on your side here I'm not sure what will.

I feel like ultimately all you need to do to settle this is present some evidence. Screenshots can easily be grabbed on PC and while PS4 is slightly less user friendly it isn't anything close to impossible.

Let me be clear - I don't think your claims are outlandish, I do think that we will find ourselves in a poor place at the end of the expansion, but honestly it makes me a bit suspicious of your claims when you're consistantly pressed for evidence and consisitantly fail to present any. I want to believe that this thread was started for a legitimate reason and to put this entire debate to bed all you need to do is prove your claims... so please do!

I understand that you didn't gather any screenshots when you first encountered this situation but if it is prevalent enough for you to continue this debate I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find further proof of your claims.

You have the power to end this entire discussion and aim it in the direction that WHM may actually be in danger, all you need to do is back your points up.

[Sebazy]

WHMs have always had the dubious honour of being the healer with the most oh-snap buttons, but throughout 4.0 I haven't come across anything that really warrants it. Not against what an AST/ SCH can do, at any rate.

Don't take this as an attack, but I'm guessing you don't do a huge amount of raiding? If so, that makes your viewpoint more understandable since very little outside of Savage requires the sort of throughput WHM is capable of.

I can only promise you that when you are learning God Kefka, that HPS potency is highly appreciated early on.

[Tridus]

My point is WHM's growing irrelevancy. Groups have been appearing to that effect, I've seen a handful, others, only one, or not at all. But they've still appeared with the patch, and it alarms me. It's an all-too familiar sight.

We'll know pretty soon, once enough logs from 4.3 go up to see if the trends have changed.

You really don't need to look very far, just look at the various WHM threads since 4.0. There are a lot of comments to the effect of our gauge is useless, our utility is non-existent, we haven't grown since 3.0 and we have little to offer compared to the other healers.

All of those things were true (or not, 4.0 WHM is clearly better than 3.0 WHM) in 4.2, and WHM did just fine in 4.2. The gauge is useless, but our spells sure aren't. It was comical in expert last night when I actually got a lily. But the gauge being useless is also a blessing, because not having the resource doesn't matter. The job plays just fine if you pretend it doesn't exist.

That's a design flaw with the gauge, but it doesn't break the job.

You kind of answered yourself there. "AST and SCH can do the same", and more. You can complete content with any class, provided you're competent enough. But when there's enough of a gap between what each one offers, the question - which someone mentioned previously - is, "why WHM instead of AST/ SCH?" There's a problem when you feel you're holding the group back playing the class you like.

But that stuff didn't change from 4.2, and in 4.2 WHM was the #2 healer in popularity for savage with a large gap over AST. If AST is so much better, why is WHM so popular?

I didn't say it's being locked out of the majority content, I said WHM is becoming irrelevant to the point of being excluded in certain scenarios once again, which is a valid concern to have with a class. "well it's still ok" isn't much consolation.

Regardless of how few you may have seen, the fact they exist is a problem. The balance is off when it's a case of guaranteed spot vs. "uhm fine I guess but can you change?"

It is to satisfy you, as I've already stated I don't particularly care if you believe me or not. No amount of demanding "factual evidence" I'm not obligated to provide you is going to change what I've seen. As I've said, believe me, don't believe me, it's immaterial. Really, if you're so certain I'm lying, why does this concern you so much?

The groups cropped up with this patch, I'm assuming with the recent changes.

You saying its a fact doesn't make it a fact. Facts require proof, and you also just said that you refuse to provide that because you're "not obligated" to provide actual facts. You know what that's called? #FakeNews

[Beelhi]

Unlike you, i went ingame to check PF on Odin (Chaos) today at 2PM ST and not a single high end duty locked out WHM, a majority already had WHM in it, aswell as the healer slots being open to every healer. Even farm parties and o3s/o4s weekly parties didn't leave WHM out. You have only done o5s and o6s and in those fight having AST/SCH or WHM/SCH literally makes no difference. The only time people demand AST is when they want to do speedruns or logruns and it's usually dps requesting that to get their numbers up.

I have also solo healed 5 and 6 as WHM and AST and it is MUCH easier as WHM and i can even throw out a few stones because i don't have to worry about mana, aswell as the AST cards being so RNG my group felt it went better with WHM.
I also did God kefka progression with AST as SCH and my group felt more stable with WHM/SCH combo because of the huge amount of damage coming out that is tackled the best with a WHM.

https://imgur.com/a/Djclbr8

If it really is as big a problem as you make it out to be I'm sure you have no problem going online and taking screenshots of the "large amount of groups" that won't let WHM join no?

[Maeka]

LOL at least one of those above screenshots specifically wants a WHM and the rest say "WHM SCH AST remaining".

[Miste]

You quite clearly care very much.

I care about posting my opinions and challenging people when they make claims with no facts. In general challenging people to prove their claims when it reeks of exaggeration like your OP.

There isn't much point in my replying to this. You obviously have some sort of underlying issue with me from a previous debate I'm not even sure I remember

I mean...if you are not going to read my replies then of course there is no point in you bothering to reply. Since you end up posting things that are completely incorrect even though I already explained myself to you.

I dislike when people post paranoid exaggerations which if you know my post history you'll see more of it. Exiled_Tonberry knows since I used to nag at her about getting too paranoid and making exaggerations or claiming stuff that can't be proven.

You aren't a special case, Lunaxia. If anyone else posted this same thread, guess what? I'd be here to challenge them.

It isn't about you no matter how much you think it is. It is about what you posted in this thread's OP.

I may choose my words differently and be more blunt because of what happened in the past since I honestly think you can handle it with all that salty ad hominem you threw at me back then; it's fine if you don't remember I don't care, but I'd still be here if the OP wasn't made by you so don't kid yourself.

I just found it amusing you seemed offended by my opinion that you are lying to exaggerate the situation; something that isn't even close to how rude you were to me in the past /shrug

So I decided to explain why I was so blunt and open with my opinion on this since you kept bringing up the "liar" thing as such a huge sticking point in most of your posts in here.

If my assertion is vague to you because I don't gather screenshots and statistics and note times in preparation for internet arguments, then that's your problem.

I didn't say post screenshots of the ones you initially saw because you already said you didn't take any. Again, actually reading what I post will help you in actually replying properly.

I said your explanation is vague because you can't even recall in your MIND how many groups you saw in PF excluding WHM to answer questions being posed to you in here.

If this was such a big deal did you not even count them when you apparently kept seeing more of them?? You don't even have a recollection at all?

Like others have said...you said a "large amount of groups" are excluding WHMs since the patch dropped.

This thread was made over 2 days ago...you could have taken some screenshots after you posted it since people were questioning your claims.

You claimed it was a large amount of groups so how come you won't go take screenshots?? They must be there in the PF if you believe your own claim right? Even someone from Chaos above took screenshots of the PF, why can't you to prove what you claimed in OP??

But if you're waiting for me to say my own eyes were wrong to please you, you'll be waiting a while.

Nope...and hopefully this is the last time I need to explain this to you...because at this point it seems you are being willfully obtuse.

Mandatory AST placement has returned, and a large number of groups are dropping the pretense altogether and are back to excluding WHM entirely for SCH/ AST.

I'm waiting for you to prove this claim you made.

So do it or concede you have no facts to back up your claim.

[Lunaxia]

snip

I appreciate the sentiment behind your response, but the purpose of this thread has been largely misunderstood. I've already said I don't care if people believe me, and if I were ever inclined to, it vanished with the subsequent replies. I saw what I saw. If it isn't reflected in other people's experiences, then that's only a good thing for WHM. I'm not so optimistic, clearly. But I'm not putting my time into convincing people I don't really care for, especially when they can and already have made up their own minds.

snip.

I raid when I can, and I'm familiar with the Kefka mechanics. I guess I just don't see it as much of a consolation that we have one duty where our level 70 skill isn't useless/ overkill and can be replaced without much issue when the fight becomes more familiar. From this thread, some people are comfortable with WHM being the "prog healer" (though even during 1 - 3, it didn't feel necessary) but I still find it needs more to be on par with the other healers.

girl...

I've said everything I'm going to say. You're vastly overestimating your own opinion and how much I actually care what you think, and the time and energy I'm willing to put into changing that.

Perhaps what I said was rude. I'm not in the habit of making offensive or personal slights, but if what I said was so terrible it affected you to the point you've held onto it so long, then I'm sorry.

[Beelhi]

I love how you just keep ignoring everyone that took the time to provide actual evidence with screenshots, whilst you have failed to do so! So i think we can all agree now that you saw a few people wanting specific jobs (wich they have the right to do) and blew the whole thing out of proportion.

[Lunaxia]

n

I acknowledged it. I said I'm glad, but I'm still wary.

If it makes you feel better believing that, then by all means.

[Miste]

You're vastly overestimating your own opinion and how much I actually care what you think

If you don't care what I think then why have you continued to reply to me every time I address you?

You can just ignore me if you want. It doesn't really matter to me since it is quite obvious you don't want to be bothered to actually try to defend and prove what you posted in your OP...so to me I am kind of confused why you even bothered to post it. I basically met the goal I came in here for and that is to show that what you posted in the OP of this thread is an exaggeration.

You should make threads about real WHM issues to help the job, instead of this exaggeration which just wasted time... or simply switch jobs if you don't like how it plays.

Perhaps what I said was rude. I'm not in the habit of making offensive or personal slights, but if what I said was so terrible it affected you to the point you've held onto it so long, then I'm sorry.

You didn't need to apologize, since it was a long time ago, nice of you to do so though. I wouldn't have even mentioned it, but you really seemed to take my opinion harshly over something very minor compared to how I've seen you post in the past so it seemed like I should explain why I didn't feel the need to overly sugarcoat it for you.

You might be putting too much stock in your ability to affect me with weak insults on a forum. It simply means I won't likely be overly friendly to you because you lost a lot of respect in my eyes after that which affects how I would respond to you; way more likely I'll be blunt with my opinions rather than re-word them to try to be more diplomatic.

Having a good memory doesn't mean I was so terribly affected by the rude comments you made in the past to carry a torch around about it ever since, but since I don't forget due to my good memory I also don't feel the need to be overly sugary to someone who openly threw ad hominem at me. /shrug

You did apologize even though you didn't have to though so at least it shows you in a better light to me now. I also apologize if anything I said offended or hurt you.