Revelations from Patch 4.3

[Iscah]

I think they're referring to the Nhaama Desert.

I wondered about that, but I'm not sure. The Burn is definitely to the south of the Steppe, is drawn with large craters (tunnels?) across it, and also a sandworm monster - which resemble beetle larvae so that fits with the description of "giant beetles".

[Theodric]

The Four Lords:

The new dungeon is very aesthetically pleasing. I like the trend of not tying every new dungeon to the MSQ's as it helps make them feel like genuine adventures. The final boss, once defeated, also heads over the temple beneath Hell's Lid which is a neat touch. The solo duty was great, too. Tataru proves to be fairly useless in a fight - again - so that made for some comic relief. As did her brief time as a cursed hag. We learned more about Tenzen - and it seems like he was a pretty charming, good natured guy. There's an element of tragedy in regards to his auspice companions enduring through the ages without him at their side. I'm looking forward to the 4.4 trial since that will almost certainly be against one of Byakko's companions.

[Guiballad]

After some time to mull it over, I came to a very different conclusion surrounding Yotsuyu's actions during 4.3. It's still very tragic - perhaps moreso than your interpretation - but a bit more hopeful, I think.

Yotsuyu never really came back. The "Yotsuyu" we see is, for the most part, Tsuyu playing Yotsuyu.

We know she regained her memories in Namai and when confronted with her parents. After delivering the persimmon Gosetsu wanted to him, she nearly commits suicide out of guilt for her past actions and feeling unworthy of Gosetsu and the others' kindness and mercy. She's then stopped by her parents, who continue to treat her like a burden and piece of property, only to kill them in a rage. Afterwards Yotsuyu plays out Asahi's assigned role in the tragedy until the very end, using the last of her strength to defy and kill him.

However... "Yotsuyu" seems to be trying too hard to play the role of the iron-heeled Witch of Doma. Before incarnating herself into Tsukuyomi she grandstands at length about how she's an Imperial citizen, and how she's going to make Doma suffer and pay both to fulfill her duty and for personal satisfaction. However, her actions as Tsukuyomi don't really support that being her true intent. Instead of attacking right away she waits patiently for the others to evacuate and for the Warrior of Light to charge her. After just a few moments of combat, she's so weakened that she requires external stimuli in the form of phantoms to power herself up, and even when trying to do that is stopped short by a phantom of Gosetsu holding off Zenos. After using her Nightbloom super, she seems to be fully aware and accepting of the fact the Warrior of Light is going to kill her - she feels she's beyond redemption, despite Gosetsu's protestations to the contrary. In the end she finishes off Asahi, letting cooler (and saner) heads prevail.

Yotsuyu knew everything that would happen, and she played it all to an ultimately good end she sacrificed her life for. She knew Asahi's plan (obviously), and she knew the Warrior of Light would be there. She knew that playing "Yotsuyu," claiming Imperial citizenship, would place the onus for the summoning on the Empire, and she knew (incarnate) summoning would force the Warrior of Light to kill her. She also knew Asahi would twist events on paper, claiming a Doman citizen was responsible, so saved the last of her strength to kill him and allow a clear version of the events to be relayed back to Garlemald - not only sparing Doma yet another bloody war, but exposing the nefarious elements of the Empire by sending the genuinely populist Garleans back with that correct record of events.

In short, Yotsuyu (or Tsuyu) wanted us to kill her because she didn't feel like she deserved the kindness and mercy Gosetsu and everyone else offered her after what she did, and knew that summoning would force the Warrior of Light to kill her. She played that to her advantage by declaring Imperial allegiance and saving the last of her strength to cut the head off the serpent running the game (though personal satisfaction was also a factor), ending the life she felt she didn't deserve to do it. Even with her memories returned Tsuyu had become her true persona, while "Yotsuyu" was just a mask she wore to deceive everyone into playing the parts she wanted them to. (Ironically the exact opposite of what so many were suspicious of.)

Perhaps. Or perhaps it's just my ego and naivete talking.

Either way, the Warrior of Light is clearly not happy with how things turned out and enraged by Asahi's barbarism, so I do not agree with the conclusion that they are little more than a killing machine seeking thrills without scruples.

I don't agree 100% with everything said here, but this lends itself to a really interesting analysis

I'd go even a bit further and say the very design of her trial supports the ideia of Tsuyu being a stronger force in her decision making to a certain degree. While the transitional add phase with the appearance of the Goesetsu spectre is a very obvious nod that her time as Tsuyu truly changed her, the duality of light and dark that Tsukuyomi presents specially during her third phase is very fitting for the duality of Tsuyu and Yotsuyu and seems really symbolic at least to me and a neat little way to mix the symbology of the deity from whom the primal is based and the character's arc.

[Theodric]

Construct 7:

Don't worry, our dancing robot is very much alive! If, after defeating the end boss, you run back to the area that you fought him in you can find him happily dancing away. It's a neat touch given that upon his defeat he mentions taking 95% damage.

[ObsidianFire]

About 24 man raid

My problem of understanding is: They say that Dalmasca was already ruled nearly 1000 years long until it fell 30 years ago. If Dalmasca was only founded when Gog was destroyed then these people and thus Ivalice are over 1000 years old. Which is such a huge time that I have a hard time understanding how they would find any prove that those who fledfrom Gog over 1000 years (or even more then because Gog was already in ruins when these people found and used it as an lighthouse) are somehow connected to the Garleans that only 50 years ago came together and formed the nation we know. Why did they not improve their live until Garlemald was founded? Over 1000 years should be more than enough to built up empires again and again. If Dalmasca came later, why did those from Gog not simply built their places on the ground of Dalmasca or Rabanastre?

So for me it feels more like that they either coexisted for a longer time and Gog was simply outside their border and maybe they even had a conflict. Seeing how they themselved destroyed their city with their technic maybe Dalmasca did not like their advancement and thus did not want to take them in after the explosion?

I wonder if we learn at the end of the story that they have anchestors in Ivalice and that as a consequence they begin to understand that not every single technical item should be constructed otherwise it could be the downfall of a nation. I mean even Cid hinted at this by saying that this was the reasoning of the old emporer. That its not the weapon that kills but the one that wields it, and used that to create horrible stuff.

Response to the above

Dalmasca and Ivalice were not concurrent countries. Dalmasca is the same land that Ivalice was down to the Dalmascans building their capital over Ivalice's capital. Goug was concurrent with Ivalice. From the sound of it, Ivalice and Goug weren't enemies and were maybe even allies due to proximity.

Ivalice was a country so long ago that it's like Allag. Nobody really thought either Ivalice or Allag existed until ruins were found even though myths of both had been around for a long time. In the case of Ivalice, those ruins were discovered by us when we went under Rabanastre. Personally, I think Ivalice was founded before the 6th Astral Era.

Given that Dalmasca is in the same place Ivalice was, it was founded long after Goug fell. And Goug fell not necessarily because their own technology turned on them. The original Ramza went through the area and it was during that period that the middle portion of the tower exploded. Given that in the original Tactics Construct 8 was a boss... it's just as likely Ramza caused the explosion. A third party orchestrating the explosion is also a viable explanation (Ascian involvement anyone?).

While the Empire of Garlemald is only 50 years old, the Republic of Garlemald had been around for 600 years before it became the Empire. Whatever homeland the Garleans originally were from fell around 750 year ago. That's starting to get into the "nearly 1000 years" that Dalmasca has been around for. The fact that the Garleans still have stories about Ivalice as part of their culture (even if they think they are just myths) is also a pretty good indicator that Ivalice was important to the Garleans at one point.

[SilverArrow20XX]

Response to the above

Dalmasca and Ivalice were not concurrent countries. Dalmasca is the same land that Ivalice was down to the Dalmascans building their capital over Ivalice's capital. Goug was concurrent with Ivalice. From the sound of it, Ivalice and Goug weren't enemies and were maybe even allies due to proximity.

Ivalice was a country so long ago that it's like Allag. Nobody really thought either Ivalice or Allag existed until ruins were found even though myths of both had been around for a long time. In the case of Ivalice, those ruins were discovered by us when we went under Rabanastre. Personally, I think Ivalice was founded before the 6th Astral Era.

Given that Dalmasca is in the same place Ivalice was, it was founded long after Goug fell. And Goug fell not necessarily because their own technology turned on them. The original Ramza went through the area and it was during that period that the middle portion of the tower exploded. Given that in the original Tactics Construct 8 was a boss... it's just as likely Ramza caused the explosion. A third party orchestrating the explosion is also a viable explanation (Ascian involvement anyone?).

While the Empire of Garlemald is only 50 years old, the Republic of Garlemald had been around for 600 years before it became the Empire. Whatever homeland the Garleans originally were from fell around 750 year ago. That's starting to get into the "nearly 1000 years" that Dalmasca has been around for. The fact that the Garleans still have stories about Ivalice as part of their culture (even if they think they are just myths) is also a pretty good indicator that Ivalice was important to the Garleans at one point.

About Ivalice

I'd say Ivalice being founded before the 6th Astral Era is a definite. One of the NPCs on the Prima Vista mentions Goug falling thousands of Summers ago. That already places Goug's fall at least in the 5th Astral Era if it was only 2000 years ago. Given the abundance of surviving ruins from other 5th AE civilizations like the Amdapori, I'm inclined to believe that Ivalice may be even older than that since the ruins have eroded to such obscurity. Given that Allag had a global empire going, I also doubt Ivalice would have been allowed to exist in the 3rd Astral Era. I'm willing to bet this is our first 4th Astral Era civilization.

I also suspect Dalmasca has been around since the 5th Astral Era. The B'nargan Dynasty started 1000 years ago, which would've been around year 500 of the 6th Astral Era (around the time Ishgard was founded, and pre-dating the three city states including Belah'dia), but Rabanastre was said to have already been an old city at the time, and the light house at Ridorana, which was built upon the foundation of Goug is old enough that the Dalmascans don't remember who built it.

[Alleo]

Response to the above

Dalmasca and Ivalice were not concurrent countries. Dalmasca is the same land that Ivalice was down to the Dalmascans building their capital over Ivalice's capital. Goug was concurrent with Ivalice. From the sound of it, Ivalice and Goug weren't enemies and were maybe even allies due to proximity.

Ivalice was a country so long ago that it's like Allag. Nobody really thought either Ivalice or Allag existed until ruins were found even though myths of both had been around for a long time. In the case of Ivalice, those ruins were discovered by us when we went under Rabanastre. Personally, I think Ivalice was founded before the 6th Astral Era.

Given that Dalmasca is in the same place Ivalice was, it was founded long after Goug fell. And Goug fell not necessarily because their own technology turned on them. The original Ramza went through the area and it was during that period that the middle portion of the tower exploded. Given that in the original Tactics Construct 8 was a boss... it's just as likely Ramza caused the explosion. A third party orchestrating the explosion is also a viable explanation (Ascian involvement anyone?).

While the Empire of Garlemald is only 50 years old, the Republic of Garlemald had been around for 600 years before it became the Empire. Whatever homeland the Garleans originally were from fell around 750 year ago. That's starting to get into the "nearly 1000 years" that Dalmasca has been around for. The fact that the Garleans still have stories about Ivalice as part of their culture (even if they think they are just myths) is also a pretty good indicator that Ivalice was important to the Garleans at one point.

Thanks for the post, its now clearer for me.

Well then I find it even a bit more strange that the one NPC in the group states that this relevation means that Ivalice is their home (and kinda implies that it thus makes it fine that they took the land by force) If its so long ago then they dont really have a claim on this land anymore (imo) and for me this knowledge should just be used to prove that they have such anchestors but nothing more. Because I am quite sure that somehwere down the line we are all connected to each other.

[Remedi]

Thanks for the post, its now clearer for me.

Well then I find it even a bit more strange that the one NPC in the group states that this relevation means that Ivalice is their home (and kinda implies that it thus makes it fine that they took the land by force) If its so long ago then they dont really have a claim on this land anymore (imo) and for me this knowledge should just be used to prove that they have such anchestors but nothing more. Because I am quite sure that somehwere down the line we are all connected to each other.

Well about that:

The guy is the thespian that before was a bit jaded on us killing his compatriots and said while he believes that the empire ways are a bit extremes he believes that Garlemand uniting all into his nations is a holy cause so I would consider that a bit of a rambling

[Belhi]

Well about that:

The guy is the thespian that before was a bit jaded on us killing his compatriots and said while he believes that the empire ways are a bit extremes he believes that Garlemand uniting all into his nations is a holy cause so I would consider that a bit of a rambling

Yeah I wouldn't read too much into that dialog:

That guy has been in a round about fashion trying to justify Garlemald's policies of aggression from the beginning. He is just trying another excuse to justify the invasion. More over it sounds like that if Ramsa wasn't a native to Goug he certainly was there around the time the city fell since it sounds like the destruction that caused the city to become abandoned happened due to an explosion at the end of a battle between Ramsa and a construct called Construct 8.

Its also worth noting that it is considered very much only a theory at this point without any definitive proof. Also as another NPC points out, Garlemald was founded by 7 tribes coming together, only one of which probably would have originated from Goug. In truth, with so much population movement I wouldn't be surprised if you could trace back ancestory of different groups to all over Hydealyn.

Small sidequest stuff

One thing I like about this patch is the little glimpses of the story of the world in general progressing. It's nice to see in the custom deliveries Kurenai looking to open up her people to the outside world again. Revisiting the Saltery in the Lochs in the related quest and seeing how its starting to make solid turn overs and the place is being rebuilt was also good. It gives a sense of the long term effects of our past efforts on the world starting to bear fruit.

[Alleo]

Well about that:

The guy is the thespian that before was a bit jaded on us killing his compatriots and said while he believes that the empire ways are a bit extremes he believes that Garlemand uniting all into his nations is a holy cause so I would consider that a bit of a rambling

Oh good to know. x) Must have missed that sentence in the last patch but that makes his view more clearer.