And so it begins again

[Beelhi]

I didn't say it's being locked out of the majority content, I said WHM is becoming irrelevant to the point of being excluded in certain scenarios once again, which is a valid concern to have with a class. "well it's still ok" isn't much consolation.

Same thing, same meaning. It is not a valid concern because the few people that don't want to have WHM have the right to do so, it doesn't take away that none of us have seen WHM being excluded, with the exeption for a few parse-runs. If you want to talk about a class becoming irrelevant and left out in PF talk to a SAM, they had more issues than you believe WHM has now.
It is NOT a fact that it is a problem because then you would have people complaining about it here, reddit, and wherever. Meanwhile a majority of the parties i look at when i want to join something (current Sav/EX) already have a WHM in them.

[Maeka]

Now I'm not up to the level of doing Tsuku EX (I haven't really messed with any EX primals to be honest), but after reading the thread...



Seriously, Lunaxia... you've been proven wrong time and time and time again.... it'd look a lot better for yourself if you'd just concede that maybe you did indeed jump the gun. Yes, I get the fear of being left in the dust, and I get that it sounds like AST and SCH are getting all the goodies and you're afraid WHM will be left behind.

I dunno about you, but when I play WHM, I find that my character performs the Healer role quite admirably despite my own failings. The job isn't perfect, but dang, it can sure pump out the heals like nobody's business, and Stone still hurts as ever, Holy Spam still wrecks face on multiple enemies like it always has. The job is a very no frills-no nonsense get'er'done type deal from what I've experienced.

I can't speak about the highest of the highest content, the Savage Raids and what-not, but EX Primals are hardly Savage Raids. I haven't heard of anybody trying to min-max EX Primals except for a few idiots on PF asking for ludicrous gear levels/achievements/etc.

Fact is, I've been hearing the opposite, at least on NN. The general consensus seems to be that the newest couple EX Trials are easy as crap. I don't know if that's true or not as I've not done them, but that's what I've been hearing.

If it's "Easy as crap" then no, nobody's gonna care if you bring WHM, AST or SCH. As long as you know how to play the job.

[Saraphin]

so far on Ultros, i've seen...Equal opportunity Healing in PF. Right now, I'm not seeing it, that doesn't meant it won't change. I'm going to watch it, Novice network and all, but I'm not going to freak out yet.

When the Sprouts/returners start having a breakdown, then I'll start worrying, or I get the time to figure out Zurvan 2.0 (as quite a few people i've talked to have called it) and get enough people together with my FC to just go in blind, cackle and have fun for an evening.

[Lunaxia]

snip

I've been told there's apparently no problem on Aether and Primal, and for that I'm glad. But I've also been called a liar, which I'm not. I did see a trend among the healers, less than two days after a patch that brought more changes to classes already fairing better in terms of efficiency and utility, despite being told there was no danger of it happening, and it's a trend I'm worried will increase.

If people think I'm wrong, fine. But I take issue with saying "I'm making something up" or even trolling because it conflicts with their own experiences. I'm not taking back something I've seen with my own eyes to make other people feel better.

WHM

It is easy, and optimising for it is ridiculous, but it's been cropping up as I'd feared. WHM feels on thin ice because it offers nothing else but those no-frills heals, and they're typically not even necessary (in fact, you hope they won't be.) More WHMs generally feel shunted into AST or SCH for this reason, and that's another form of the problem.

[Maeka]

I've been told there's apparently no problem on Aether and Primal, and for that I'm glad. But I've also been called a liar, which I'm not. I did see a trend among the healers, less than two days after a patch that brought more changes to classes already fairing better in terms of efficiency and utility, despite being told there was no danger of it happening, and it's a trend I'm worried will increase.

I don't like people name-calling, however there have been oodles and oodles of screenshots from different datacenters that is showing evidence to the contrary of what you are saying is happening.

I don't condone name-calling, but at the same time, you appear to be making an issue out of something that's not actually happening.

If people think I'm wrong, fine. But I take issue with saying "I'm making something up" or even trolling because it conflicts with their own experiences. I'm not taking back something I've seen with my own eyes to make other people feel better.

If you say "I saw the sky! It was Tooty-Fruity!" and I look up at the sky and I see blue, then obviously the problem is not with the sky, but with your eyes. People in the thread have explained various reasons why it might LOOK like WHM is excluded (such as role lockouts because of people having those roles leaving groups, etc) but yet at the end of the day if multiple people pull up PF and there's a WHM in nearly every single one of them (as evidenced by the screenshots earlier in the thread) then how can I sit here and agree with you that there's a problem when all the evidence says otherwise?

It is easy, and optimising for it is ridiculous, but it's been cropping up as I'd feared. WHM feels on thin ice because it offers nothing else but those no-frills heals, and they're typically not even necessary (in fact, you hope they won't be.) More WHMs generally feel shunted into AST or SCH for this reason, and that's another form of the problem.

Broad generalizations and appeals to anonymity does not help your case.

"More WHMs generally feel" .... how do you know? Did you conduct a poll? Where's the results of this poll?

I am a WHM and I've been a WHM ever since ARR and I don't feel that way. Now, granted, I have been leveling SCH, but that's more because I'm a completionist. I'm leveling it because it's there. However, to be honest, I like WHM more.

As for heals and whether or not they are needed, uh. I don't know what battles you've been doing, but the Sigmascapes and the Compass runs I've done in the last few days suggests that my heals are very much needed, as I've been spamming Medica, giving it out like it's candy. Now of course AST and SCH could do the same, but meh. I've not had anybody go "man, a WHM? I wish we had a SCH (or AST) instead". In fact, I've been in several groups with 2x WHM and we kick butt just fine. Nowhere near enrage timers, and wipes only happen when people screw up or insanely bad luck happens.

You don't NEED party buffs. You can do just fine without them.

[Elamys]

I looked on Aether and I saw one group that was locked to AST only and was probably due to someone that was an AST dropping. A number of groups had WHMs in them already. Please, don't exaggerate. WHMs are not being mass excluded. These histrionics only make it harder to see what actually needs to be addressed with healer balance.

I've been told there's apparently no problem on Aether and Primal, and for that I'm glad. But I've also been called a liar, which I'm not. I did see a trend among the healers, less than two days after a patch that brought more changes to classes already fairing better in terms of efficiency and utility, despite being told there was no danger of it happening, and it's a trend I'm worried will increase.

People from Chaos are saying they aren't seeing this. I don't think you're lying, but I think you saw one or two parties where it was locked to AST/SCH and immediately overreacted.

[Sebazy]

14 kills tonight on Chaos via PF, absolutely no problems getting into groups. I'll openly admit I wasn't scrolling through groups specifically looking for anything that might be blocking WHM, but I certainly didn't run into any problems with other people's PFs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it doesn't take long to find a PF that's excluding something or the other but I'm not really seeing it as a problem as things stand.

[Lunaxia]

...says otherwise?

There were several from the same PF, and then one more or less used to mock my point, but it hardly matters.

My point is WHM's growing irrelevancy. Groups have been appearing to that effect, I've seen a handful, others, only one, or not at all. But they've still appeared with the patch, and it alarms me. It's an all-too familiar sight.

where tho

You really don't need to look very far, just look at the various WHM threads since 4.0. There are a lot of comments to the effect of our gauge is useless, our utility is non-existent, we haven't grown since 3.0 and we have little to offer compared to the other healers.

WHM

You kind of answered yourself there. "AST and SCH can do the same", and more. You can complete content with any class, provided you're competent enough. But when there's enough of a gap between what each one offers, the question - which someone mentioned previously - is, "why WHM instead of AST/ SCH?" There's a problem when you feel you're holding the group back playing the class you like.

[Maeka]

There were several from the same PF, and then one more or less used to mock my point, but it hardly matters.

My point is WHM's growing irrelevancy. Groups have been appearing to that effect, I've seen a handful, others, only one, or not at all. But they've still appeared with the patch, and it alarms me. It's an all-too familiar sight.

I dunno several people from different servers saying that they haven't seen what you are describing at all? I find it difficult to swallow. Not saying you're lying, but perhaps it's your time online, or perhaps just a couple anecdotal situations that made you come to this conclusion that this holds true across the entire spectrum?

You really don't need to look very far, just look at the various WHM threads since 4.0. There are a lot of comments to the effect of our gauge is useless, our utility is non-existent, we haven't grown since 3.0 and we have little to offer compared to the other healers.

The first thing you should learn about any MMO forum is that the forum equates a very small minority (a very vocal minority), and when we are talking about how good a job or role is, it tends to only matter in cutting-edge content which is usually comprised of less than 1% of the entire playerbase (or at least something close to that). The Second thing you should learn, is that happy people are quiet people. Vocal people are (usually) unhappy people. Therefore the vocal minority here on the forum is nowhere near the size of the happy majority that aren't posting their thoughts here.

You kind of answered yourself there. "AST and SCH can do the same", and more. You can complete content with any class, provided you're competent enough. But when there's enough of a gap between what each one offers, the question - which someone mentioned previously - is, "why WHM instead of AST/ SCH?" There's a problem when you feel you're holding the group back playing the class you like.

I suppose I should have been more specific: AST and SCH heal less per heal than a WHM does. A SCH throws his AoE heals, his heals heal for less than mine do, but they make up for it with Galvanize being applied to most of the heals. It's a different KIND of Heal.

AST heals less but they get group buffs to make up for it. Now at extremely high gear levels, yeah okay you might kill the boss faster and the smaller heals might not matter, but then again, does it really matter at the end of the day? The boss still dies and the difference is minuscule at best especially in content that you're over-geared for that has been done to death already.

For example, Sigmascape. Sigmascape is not really "current" content, it's a patch old. And already I can tell that people overgear the crap out of the place because the bosses fall over and cry uncle unless people screw up on mechanics. Replacing me with a SCH or AST is not going to make a noticeable difference in kill speed, or ease of kill. If it does, it's 10% or less of a difference. If you spend 10 minutes fighting the boss, you will kill it a whole 60 seconds faster if it's 10%. Wow. whoop-de-doo.

I don't play WHM because I want to feel competitive against other classes.

I play WHM because I like its playstyle.

If you don't like your playstyle and you're not doing cutting-edge content, then just go to another job already and quit complaining. This should be about You, having fun. If you're not have fun, stop doing what you're doing and go do something that *is* fun.

[Beelhi]

But they've still appeared with the patch, and it alarms me. It's an all-too familiar sight.

Nobody is saying groups wanting specific healers (or any job for that matter) don't exsist.

There are a lot of comments to the effect of our gauge is useless

I agree the Gauge can be improved, but i love the new 70 skills they added. I'm a mana machine, i can pump out stones and medicas like it's nothing. The first time i experienced mana issues was in o8s. I love lining up my confessions for that sweet 3-stack heal on AOEs. I love being able to spam Holy super fast without mana cost with Thin Air

There's a problem when you feel you're holding the group back playing the class you like.

Great dps, strong heals? If you feel that holds the group back you're doing something wrong.