Selfish DPS Balance

[Rayo]

After talking to some friends/FC mates, we had a somewhat reasonable idea to increase the viability of selfish DPS jobs like SAM, BLM, maybe MCH is they decide to make it the selfish DPS of the ranged DPS jobs.

We thought rather than just making them High Damage, low-to-no utility, make it so they can benefit more from other Job Utilities.

an Example would be something like:

keep SAM's current Potency but give it a trait that allows it to deal even more damage to targets with Slash Debuff and Vulnerablity, and/or maybe give it a trait that allows for it to benefit even more from Physical and Damage up buffs like Brotherhood and Dragon sight

Not sure this is the best example, maybe not even a good solution but I thought it was an interesting enough concept bring up

general idea should be that Selfish jobs benefit even more from party utility than other party memebers

[Shamox]

So basically,
In a meta comp = High Damage - No utility
In a non meta comp = Lower damage - No utility

How does it fix the issue?

[Arcturius]

I brought this up on on another post a few months ago (can't remember if it was Reddit or forums) and I love the idea. It doesn't break solo content and it helps fill the gap of dps because the more other utility you have the more powerful the selfish class becomes. Hopefully enough to make up for no utility. So obviously I support this! But on the other hand there are classes with more utility than others so having those classes (nin brd drg) would still be meta so it doesn't really seem to fix much or it would be hard to balance so I can see why this wouldn't work :/

[Wayfinder3]

I would Say introduce support role and change jobs that ideally are supposed to yield higher raid roles to those jobs. So RDM, BRD, NIN. Kinda like how AST is for healers. there is a threshold of cards ast must spread before it's more viable than whm do to the large dps disparity between them.

High Dps No Offensive Utility : SAM/BLM
-Occasional defensive utility in the vain of Mantra

MiD DPS Low Utiliy: SMN/MNK/DRG/MCH
- Dps utility like Brotherhood and has a cooldow that isn't very reliable when buff stacking. so say (90) secs or
- incredibly weak in gain but more more synergy options like Devotion which still lines up with all buffs but for a 2% gain

*i'd also try limiting the utility for this tier to prevent powerful synergies amongest themselves
Support(LOW) Dps, HIGH utility (RDM/NIN/BRD)
- Most frequent and recurring utility (Trick attack) with high syngery with other dps but possibly mediocre synergy with each other.

Alternatively just get rid of disembowel and buffs that make jobs overwhelming strong for little reason. The fact that drg gives it's biggest contributions by it's 3rd gcd is kinda crazy

Ideally you'd tune them around having 1 support dps, 1 High dps and 2 Mid dps. this high dps would probably have to be tuned very strong to prevent 2 mid/ 2 support dps from over taking them.

[Rayo]

So basically,
In a meta comp = High Damage - No utility
In a non meta comp = Lower damage - No utility

How does it fix the issue?

Theoretically:

who do you want to hit a NIN's Trick attack Vulnerability; a SAM or BLM who could passively deal 20-30% or even 50% more damage on to the target with vulnerability on top of the vulnerability's normal debuff, or any other DPS

who should an AST give a Balance buff to; a SAM or BLM who has a trait that stacks a moderate-to large (30-50%) Potency boost when given any non-user Potency buff from another party member, or any other DPS

both of these "parties" are parties of two, no other jobs there, its the NIN/AST with one other DPS

the idea for selfish shouldn't be "it doesn't help," it should be "all take, no give"
of course, this is all theory talk

[ManuelBravo]

This was discussed a while back when SAM first came out and just about any time they had some adjsutment. Overall they can be power houses and do benefit from certain support attacks like NIN. However I've only seen a few players that can actually use SAM or any other job properly. MNK, DRG, RDM, even MCH have very good DPS if they know their job properly. SAM is only a bit ahead depending on gear and such.

[Rayo]

I would Say introduce support role and change jobs that ideally are supposed to yield higher raid dps to those jobs. So RDM, BRD, NIN. Kinda like how AST is for healers. there is a threshold of cards ast must spread before it's more viable than whm do to the large dps disparity between them.
High Dps No Offensive Utility : SAM/BLM
MiD DPS Low Utiliy: SMN/MNK/DRG/MCH
*i'd also try limiting the utility for this tier to prevent powerful synergies amongest themselves
Support(LOW) Dps, HIGH utility (RDM/NIN/BRD)

Ideally you'd tune them around having 1 support dps, 1 High dps and 2 Mid dps. this high dps would probably have to be tuned very strong to prevent 2 mid/ 2 support dps from over taking them.

Players already do this, plus changes/buffs/nerfs that just tweak numbers havenever really gone over well in MMOs as far as I'm aware

[Wayfinder3]

Theoretically:

who do you want to hit a NIN's Trick attack Vulnerability; a SAM or BLM who could passively deal 20-30% or even 50% more damage on to the target with vulnerability on top of the vulnerability's normal debuff, or any other DPS

who should an AST give a Balance buff to; a SAM or BLM who has a trait that stacks a moderate-to large (30-50%) Potency boost when given any non-user Potency buff from another party member, or any other DPS

both of these "parties" are parties of two, no other jobs there, its the NIN/AST with one other DPS

the idea for selfish shouldn't be "it doesn't help," it should be "all take, no give"
of course, this is all theory talk

Alternatively redesign the utility jobs to have low burst potential. bard's burst is kinda strong for the utility it offers. rdm and nin are more tame

[Shamox]

Kinda like how AST is for healers. there is a threshold of cards ast must spread before it's more viable than whm do to the large dps disparity between them.

This threshold is RNG doe which is pretty bad, the whole card system based on RNG is just bad.

Theoretically:

who do you want to hit a NIN's Trick attack Vulnerability; a SAM or BLM who could passively deal 20-30% or even 50% more damage on to the target with vulnerability on top of the vulnerability's normal debuff, or any other DPS

If there's a BRD or a MCH in your group, which is the case in any meta composition, DRG is actually better than NIN, so the answer is pretty obvious.

who should an AST give a Balance buff to; a SAM or BLM who has a trait that stacks a moderate-to large (30-50%) Potency boost when given any non-user Potency buff from another party member, or any other DPS

Making plans around an RNG buffs that most of the time is gonna be an AOE card anyway, yes.

both of these "parties" are parties of two, no other jobs there, its the NIN/AST with one other DPS

???

the idea for selfish shouldn't be "it doesn't help," it should be "all take, no give"
of course, this is all theory talk

You need to understand that as long as there is gonna be utility buffs, any selfish DPS is gonna suffer from not having some.
Your solution would either :
-Not make SAM strong enough while not giving it any advantage in a non meta comp (oh ye you gotta realize that a good grp with a meta comp and a bad grp with a meta comp are 2 distinct things, also, selfish DPSs really rise in low to medium skill groups)
-Or, it'd be so strong that it'd just take another job's place which would simply create another issue.

[Rayo]

Alternatively redesign the utility jobs to have low burst potential. bard's burst is kinda strong for the utility it offers. rdm and nin are more tame

Potentially, I've always been for rooting for the underdog (buffing weaker/unpopular stuff), over booing the better rival(nerfing popular/Stronger stuff). In a meta where synergy is key its better to add more synergy where there was little to none rather than take away synergy that is already there