Selfish DPS Balance

[Wayfinder3]

I would Say introduce support role and change jobs that ideally are supposed to yield higher raid roles to those jobs. So RDM, BRD, NIN. Kinda like how AST is for healers. there is a threshold of cards ast must spread before it's more viable than whm do to the large dps disparity between them.

High Dps No Offensive Utility : SAM/BLM
-Occasional defensive utility in the vain of Mantra

MiD DPS Low Utiliy: SMN/MNK/DRG/MCH
- Dps utility like Brotherhood and has a cooldow that isn't very reliable when buff stacking. so say (90) secs or
- incredibly weak in gain but more more synergy options like Devotion which still lines up with all buffs but for a 2% gain

*i'd also try limiting the utility for this tier to prevent powerful synergies amongest themselves
Support(LOW) Dps, HIGH utility (RDM/NIN/BRD)
- Most frequent and recurring utility (Trick attack) with high syngery with other dps but possibly mediocre synergy with each other.

Alternatively just get rid of disembowel and buffs that make jobs overwhelming strong for little reason. The fact that drg gives it's biggest contributions by it's 3rd gcd is kinda crazy

Ideally you'd tune them around having 1 support dps, 1 High dps and 2 Mid dps. this high dps would probably have to be tuned very strong to prevent 2 mid/ 2 support dps from over taking them.

[Rayo]

I would Say introduce support role and change jobs that ideally are supposed to yield higher raid dps to those jobs. So RDM, BRD, NIN. Kinda like how AST is for healers. there is a threshold of cards ast must spread before it's more viable than whm do to the large dps disparity between them.
High Dps No Offensive Utility : SAM/BLM
MiD DPS Low Utiliy: SMN/MNK/DRG/MCH
*i'd also try limiting the utility for this tier to prevent powerful synergies amongest themselves
Support(LOW) Dps, HIGH utility (RDM/NIN/BRD)

Ideally you'd tune them around having 1 support dps, 1 High dps and 2 Mid dps. this high dps would probably have to be tuned very strong to prevent 2 mid/ 2 support dps from over taking them.

Players already do this, plus changes/buffs/nerfs that just tweak numbers havenever really gone over well in MMOs as far as I'm aware

[ManuelBravo]

This was discussed a while back when SAM first came out and just about any time they had some adjsutment. Overall they can be power houses and do benefit from certain support attacks like NIN. However I've only seen a few players that can actually use SAM or any other job properly. MNK, DRG, RDM, even MCH have very good DPS if they know their job properly. SAM is only a bit ahead depending on gear and such.

[Mahrze]

General idea should be that Selfish jobs benefit even more from party utility than other party memebers

But they technically already do, the problem is that these selfish jobs don't really have skill-set synergy vs say, WAR and MNK (to a degree) who buff themselves to great extremes and outside of Slashing (WAR) and BH (MNK) and they give nothing back to the party.

Problem with SAM and BLM is they want to fix everything with potencies and it doesn't really bring much when the potency is like... 3% vs 5%+ rDPS the others can give. But they don't want to give them too much to avoid "SAM SAM BLM BLM" as the DPS comp.

MCH being treated as BRD with a different coat of paint doesn't help the job at all, shifting its damage type to blunt and increasing its potencies considerably would make a difference and shift it to a selfish job profile, but because the range factor role toolkit, it'd alienate a job like BLM/SMN since it would hit harder than them, have more mobility and utility.

At this point, the best way to go forward is removing the damage type buff/de-buffs, buffing the jobs that lose from this accordingly and limit them to Phys/Mag if they want to keep the debuff 'nuance" albeit non-stackable (obvs).

[Sylvain]

. But they don't want to give them too much to avoid "SAM SAM BLM BLM" as the DPS comp.

Well that wouldn't happen for 3 reason

1- Most group don't care about meta (otherwise you would never see anything that is not meta), yet all job that aren't meta have cleared everything, even god Kefka has been cleared in pf with nonmeta job. Meta is only for speedkill, dps check have been considerably nerf since HW and that 2% more dps doesn't matter anymore as long everyone play their job fine and don't die like twat

2- Double job would reduce/kill the availability of LB3 which can eventually make you loose even more rdps

MCH being treated as BRD with a different coat of paint doesn't help the job at all, shifting its damage type to blunt and increasing its potencies considerably would make a difference and shift it to a selfish job profile, but because the range factor role toolkit, it'd alienate a job like BLM/SMN since it would hit harder than them, have more mobility and utility..

Well yes and no, the Range toolkit isn't exactly what makes the BRD the ultimate support
It's that + The song + The myriad of buffs they have (and especially the fact that manashift is a pile of garbage)
I mean the only useful thing they have is Refresh and Palissad
Half Refresh strength (AND greatly buff manashift) and that aspect just vanishes.

MCH could easily be turned into a selfish dps (and I personally think they should)
They don't need that many buffed (job related) to be removed

Remove Hypercharge and Dismantle and that's it you have a selfish dps job,

At this point, the best way to go forward is removing the damage type buff/de-buffs, buffing the jobs that lose from this accordingly and limit them to Phys/Mag if they want to keep the debuff 'nuance" albeit non-stackable (obvs)

Well this has been proposed over and over and as much as many people still want to keep these debuff, I tend to see more people against the debuff than for.

If SE wants to balance the game more and promote raid diversity (in the sens that you've less too good job synergy like DRG +RANGED), removed weapon type is a first, removing dmg type too (magic/physical), an issue with that is that if you have a SMN/RDM, you're stuck by having the buff only affect a part of the raid (highly reducing the player contribution)
A good example is RDM which makes the job less viable with other caster whereas the SMN either benefit from having a team of caster only of melee only OR range because you got to choose which debuff you apply.

[Kiyosuki]

It's not a bad idea, although these numbers definitely have to be a bit lower.

Unfortunately there's no real perfect answer to this problem, at the moment. Even taking damage types like pierce away will just open up a can of rebalancing worms for the devs because everything will come down to pure numbers, and even then that still won't solve some of the current issues. There's just too much overlap if you ask me. What REALLY needs to happen is that DPS job specialities need to be further defined and that'll take whole new abilities and a good amount of fundamental game mechanic rework, which we won't be likely even possibly seeing until the next expansion unfortunately.

That said, getting raid utility to get slightly higher burst from these "selfish dps" I don't think is a terrible idea. Still a bandaid fix but that's probably the best we can expect for now, that and just simply making the individual mechanics of the jobs in question feel a bit smoother I guess.

[Ilyrian]

Unfortunately there's no real perfect answer to this problem, at the moment.

In theory the only way to combat the current system would be to increase the minimum raid party size to include a slot for one of every class so people have the option to min/max without a restrictive meta comp.
Other than that it's just staying on the ever-turning wheel of class balance.

[Seraphor]

There's such a thing as selfish utility, aka taking but not giving.
BRD and MCH already have this with DRGs piercing debuff.

For example, Ley Lines could gain a trait that increases spellspeed even further if other party members stand in your Ley Lines.
Indirectly increasing the rDPS of any healer or caster who designs to stick with them.

[miraidensetsu]

There's such a thing as selfish utility, aka taking but not giving.
BRD and MCH already have this with DRGs piercing debuff.

For example, Ley Lines could gain a trait that increases spellspeed even further if other party members stand in your Ley Lines.
Indirectly increasing the rDPS of any healer or caster who designs to stick with them.

Ley lines could also increase the Spellspeed (at a minor rate than the BLM) of anyone who teps there, incentivizing other casters to get near the BLM and futher incresing the pDPS of the healers.

[Izyla]

Ley lines could also increase the Spellspeed (at a minor rate than the BLM) of anyone who teps there, incentivizing other casters to get near the BLM and futher incresing the pDPS of the healers.

Something like this could be cool, but it would also mean many people baiting AoEs on your precious leylines and having to move out of them way more often :<