Red Mages need some love

[Malkria]

Aren't you the one who made the thread that you don't like BLM because of how it plays, despite how that's the intended playstyle and the BLM playerbase by and large likes it?

Really? because the polls I found (even if they were back in heavenward) show that...over half did NOT like the job. Furthermore, if it was such a good job why do you not run into it as much during raids? I tend to see more SMN and RDM then BLM...even more MCH then BLM. There are only three magic casters, so why is it that the BLM seems to be the least popular, and by a significant margin?

[HyoMinPark]

I go by what I run into. Which tends to be RDM far more then BLM, in fact in any given group I join up in chances are there will be a RDM or SMN...but hardly ever a BLM.

You cannot do that and expect it to be, in any way, representational. FFLogs is more representational than what you see on a day-to-day basis in-game; your experiences are anecdotes, and cannot constitute as factual.

Really? because the polls I found (even if they were back in heavenward) show that...over half did NOT like the job. Furthermore, if it was such a good job why do you not run into it as much during raids? I tend to see more SMN and RDM then BLM...even more MCH then BLM. There are only three magic casters, so why is it that the BLM seems to be the least popular, and by a significant margin?

What type of polls were these? Were they officially sanctioned? Did they have a large pool of data? If they did not, you cannot consider them representational either. If they are the polls I’m thinking of, I would wager to say that FFLogs is far more representational than a poll with only ~3,000 responses...that is also ~3 years old.

[Malkria]

You cannot do that and expect it to be, in any way, representational. FFLogs is more representational than what you see on a day-to-day basis in-game; your experiences are anecdotes, and cannot constitute as factual.

Also backed up by at least 50 people from my FC.

What type of polls were these? Were they officially sanctioned? Did they have a large pool of data? If they did not, you cannot consider them representational either. If they are the polls I’m thinking of, I would wager to say that FFLogs is far more representational than a poll with only ~3,000 responses...that is also ~3 years old.

Ah...so what you are actually trying to do is troll and pick a fight. First off the poll doesn't exist yet, so cool your jets. Second, like I said FFlogs is not a true representation of the community as those who would use FFlogs are more concerned about numbers while they are using it. In other words you are more likely to have someone loading a log from playing with a static and using the job they play for said static vs what they prefer to play or play for fun. In my case you would more likely see an FFlog for AST even though I spend most of my time playing other jobs and enjoying being a DPS. The AST not being representative of the job I prefer.

I mean FFlogs are kind of junk for the most part anyways, with most people trying to apply them to more they ther actually apply to. This being a perfect example.

[Dualgunner]

Also backed up by at least 50 people from my FC.

Anecdote * 50 = Scientific Evidence. Got it.

Ah...so what you are actually trying to do is troll and pick a fight.

That's you so far, actually, not her.

First off the poll doesn't exist yet, so cool your jets.

So you mean you aren't referencing the poll you already linked in this post (and don't bother editing it now, you're quoted immediately afterward) when you're bringing up popularity polls?

Second, like I said FFlogs is not a true representation of the community as those who would use FFlogs are more concerned about numbers while they are using it.

Yes. You said it. You backed it up with nothing though.

In other words you are more likely to have someone loading a log from playing with a static and using the job they play for said static vs what they prefer to play or play for fun.

Source?

In my case you would more likely see an FFlog for AST even though I spend most of my time playing other jobs and enjoying being a DPS. The AST not being representative of the job I prefer.

So why is AST your main on this forum? Also how is having to play an AST instead of a meta DPS any less meta?

I mean FFlogs are kind of junk for the most part anyways, with most people trying to apply them to more they ther actually apply to. This being a perfect example.

You don't like FFLogs =/= it being junk.

[HyoMinPark]

Also backed up by at least 50 people from my FC.

I’m sorry, but who are your FC? Sorry if I’m not apt to take evidence from a pool of 50 people versus a pool from FFLogs of tens of thousands, if not more.

Ah...so what you are actually trying to do is troll and pick a fight. First off the poll doesn't exist yet, so cool your jets.

I’m sorry, what? You yourself said you saw polls from pre-HW era to back up these “facts” you’re going on about:

Really? because the polls I found (even if they were back in heavenward) show that...over half did NOT like the job.

You obviously didn’t read what I wrote, so please go back and read it again. Where was I talking about future polls?

I mean FFlogs are kind of junk for the most part anyways, with most people trying to apply them to more they ther actually apply to. This being a perfect example.

As opposed to quoting old polls from 3+ years ago that aren’t even a fraction of a percent of the playerbase as a whole? I said that a resource like FFLogs is more reliable as a representation than a poll of only 3,000 responses. I’m sorry, but learn the basics of statistics before you start a debate; especially one about popularity and representativeness.

[Popotato]

Also backed up by at least 50 people from my FC.

Ask your FC why they think it’s bad. There is a case to be made that BLM is weak right now, and it’s not the reasons you gave.

I also don’t understand what this guy has against people giving cohesion to the mess he wrote in his paragraph. He said the same thing to me on another thread, the difference being the way I divided the quotes was literally paragraph by paragraph. He broke it up himself. If anything, breaking his post up makes his arguments look better than they actually are since they’re actually clearer.

Anyways, I feel like we owe RDM players some actual discussion of their job after derailing so hard. RDM feedback inc.

This might’ve been touched upon before, but one of the main problems with RDM is the lack of predetermined burst phases. A RDM burst phase, the melee combo + Verfinisher, has such a variable timeframe that it feels like it never aligns with raid cooldowns, which is the core of endgame speed runs.

I think giving RDM some reliability in when it can execute its burst will give a good boost to its power and desirability. What I’m thinking is that instead of Manafication doubling current mana, it’s gives a flat 60/60 boost to current mana, with the same cooldown as now. That way, RDM burst is practically guaranteed every two minutes, and this will align with things like Trick Attack and Hypercharge. I feel like this also has the least impact on the opener, and if anything might make it so the and Embolden actually aligns with other raid buffs in the opener. While we’re at it, Embolden is a bit shit as a buff right now. For a non-selfish caster, RDM needs Embolden to have some desirability in a party. I think have a less frequent decay rate is probably the best solution.

[HyoMinPark]

Anyways, I feel like we owe RDM players some actual discussion of their job. . . .I played primarily RDM at the start of Stormblood until just before 4.2. The main thing that made me drop

I play RDM semi-frequently; I’ve flexed it in Savage before for groups, but usually not in a very serious context. I think it really could use some potency buffs. I know SE wants to keep its damage down because of the raise utility... but that utility goes away once a group finishes progging a fight, and once the fight is on farm. Buffing Embolden could also help; and maybe changing the way the buff’s decay works. Right now, it’s only worth it to line up important buffs, or to snapshot important buffs (BRD main, here), during Embolden-5. Embolden-2 and Embolden-1 are incredibly weak. I honestly think it would be better, if they wanted to keep the decay design, to just do Embolden-3, Embolden-2, and Embolden-1, and adjust potencies on those three.

[Popotato]

I play RDM semi-frequently; I’ve flexed it in Savage before for groups, but usually not in a very serious context. I think it really could use some potency buffs. I know SE wants to keep its damage down because of the raise utility... but that utility goes away once a group finishes progging a fight, and once the fight is on farm. Buffing Embolden could also help; and maybe changing the way the buff’s decay works. Right now, it’s only worth it to line up important buffs, or to snapshot important buffs (BRD main, here), during Embolden-5. Embolden-2 and Embolden-1 are incredibly weak. I honestly think it would be better, if they wanted to keep the decay design, to just do Embolden-3, Embolden-2, and Embolden-1, and adjust potencies on those three.

Actually, the talk about snapshotting makes me think that maybe instead of a decay or even a potency, changing the effect to a ramp up would give it a good buff to its utility. That way, other jobs will want to snapshot during that brief 20% buff. This would also have little implication on the RDM itself, and could even be a light form of skill expression to align the verfinisher right has Embolden hits 20%

I don’t play much RDM anymore though so if there’s any obvious negative I’m missing let me know.

[Dualgunner]

Ask your FC why they think it’s bad. There is a case to be made that BLM is weak right now, and it’s not the reasons you gave.

I should amend that I'm in no way saying Black Mage is perfect, and my position is the same as Popotato's; the imperfections being pointed out aren't the real problem.

I also don’t understand what this guy has against people giving cohesion to the mess he wrote in his paragraph. He said the same thing to me on another thread, the difference being the way I divided the quotes was literally paragraph by paragraph. He broke it up himself. If anything, breaking his post up makes his arguments look better than they actually are since they’re actually clearer.

I break things up for a lot of reasons; it helps me compartmentalize what I'm responding to so I can make more sense with my own posts, and it makes it easier to digest for readers. I'm not really sure his issue with this either :/

Anyways, I feel like we owe RDM players some actual discussion of their job after derailing so hard. RDM feedback inc.

Happens more often than you think lol. Every caster discussion inevitably has the other two come in and screech for a bit.

This might’ve been touched upon before, but one of the main problems with RDM is the lack of predetermined burst phases. A RDM burst phase, the melee combo + Verfinisher, has such a variable timeframe that it feels like it never aligns with raid cooldowns, which is the core of endgame speed runs.

Complete agreement here; a big problem with its damage is that it can't reliably hit its stride every 2 minutes. Actually, it can't even take advantage of even the initial opening burst; it can save embolden for a 5/6th GCD lineup with trick (amusingly, at cost to its own personal dps as well), but it won't be another two to three GCDs before it can even start Riposte. I'm lucky and sometimes manage to get a Zwerchhau under trick.

Make Manafy +60/60 instead of double

This is a creative solution to the issue. Even for the opener, by 5/6th GCD I'm usually at ~31/31 procs pending, so an instant boost of 60+ for each would allow me to jump right in with my burst on Trick and get to use my embo to boost the raid and keep the selfish benefits of it. It would also make double verfinishers a lot easier to pull off, as if you went from 100/99 you'd end at 20/19 and then jump straight up to 80/79, where you'd only need 1 (but you'll take 2) GCDs to get right back into it; this means the stronger end of your combo would also be encapsulated in your second verfinisher.

While we’re at it, Embolden is a bit shit as a buff right now. For a non-selfish caster, RDM needs Embolden to have some desirability in a party. I think have a less frequent decay rate is probably the best solution.

There are a few ways to deal with embolden. I wouldn't necessarily like it as a ramp-up buff, because that would complicate timing your melee with it a bit. I'd prefer it to be like overcharge, a flat 6% damage buff for 20 seconds (about its average damage buff now). Whatever is done with it it needs to increase damage in general, not "physical for you, magical for me." That's dumb imo.