Increasing difficulty in casual content ≠ Savage

[KaldeaSahaline]

Even one case is problematic, we have the same problem with tanks here, in a vertical progression setting you want to get stronger and stronger, since that's the fantasy they are after.

We have it with more than just tanks, but tanks are a felony level example. While I agree that a single case is problematic it's a pretty nuanced issue. I wish I had a good solution for it, but I don't.

I can tell you (as a PLD main), it FEELs so much worse in this game than it does WoW. I really don't like secondaries in either game. I really don't like secondaries at all. I think the goal of secondaries could probably be better used as functions/themes inside class abilities in both MMOs.

Realistically, the hardest content in the game should be the 4-player content (if not the solo combat content,) but instead it's the 8-player Savage content. Perhaps SE should consider making savage content 4-player content, and make storyline content 8-player content.

Why should 4 player content be the hardest? Cite specific reasons/examples/insight please.

Do you have any examples of mechanics that would be interested/challenging for a tank or healer in a 4 player party?

Exactly what would change about like, Phantom Train or Chadarnook, if we made that a 4man? Absolutely nothing. You would need to scale the Prey damage down slightly because you wouldnt have offhealer shielding or healing after Prey for the next Rain but besides that, it's exactly the same, but with mechanics targeting 1/2 of the players. Lights target 1 instead of 2, and with the 1 tether. If tank is caught in a ghost, you wipe, because you failed the mechanic and you should wipe.

I cannot say the game has done a poor job teaching players to play the game, because that would imply that the game has even attempted to do so.

While I wholeheartedly agree on your last point, I'm not sure just translating Sigmascape savage to 4 man is as easy as you imply it is. Not to mention, the less people there are to make mistakes, the easier the content is as it dramatically cuts down learning time (all else equal) and thus shortens the life of the content.

I think a lot of things would need to change in the core combat system before we can make 4 man content both engaging and challenging. I think the limited way in which mechanics overlap is a core problem here.

O5S - 4 man would make that fight considerably easier (assuming incoming damage re-tuned for single healer). Think of how much more space you'd have for mechanics. The non-cheese strat would also be hilariously easy with just 4 people.

O6S - I suppose I can agree that not much would change here, but O6S isn't the most riveting experience as it stands now.

I'd be curious if you had any other good examples of how you could make engaging/challenging 4 man mechanics, within the existing design constraints, for tanks and healers specifically, but DPS if you have them too!).

All tanks in Stormblood have some way of self-sustain and some way of buying more time with a cooldown. While a PLD would clearly be in the best spot because Clemency and Hallowed can buy all kinds of time (I mean, I've flat out healed O8N for almost a minute alone as a PLD after both healers got knocked off at the same time and needed to recover), all the tanks have something to do that isn't "just keep DPSing until I die and blame the healer." They can buy time for a healer to get out from the ghosts, as it doesn't take that long to kill one. DPS can actually avoid stuff until the healer is out, and if you've got a RDM who realizes they have Vercure, you're fine anyway.

I don't know why you like to exaggerate, but there's a gap between "everything instagibs you and wipes the party" and "it's literally impossible to fail this boss if you are awake."

While it literally pains me to defend Riyah - I am inclined to agree (IN THIS SPECIFIC instance only).

I don't see how you can design good engaging/challenging 4 man content within the current design constraints with respect to tanks/healers.

Using your example - translated to a 4 man savage O5S, if you needed to use a CD to cover a mistake, then you don't have a CD you need later for a tankbuster. If you can survive without a CD, then the mechanic doesn't matter. If you can Clemency the boss auto's to survive while healer is trapped, how do you offset/survive raidwide damage then? Can't clemency everyone, and you could vercure some, but it won't be enough. What if your comp (which contains 4 out of 15 now, instead of 8 out of 15) doesn't have one of those? What if it doesn't have either?

While I would love to explore this avenue, I'm not sure how good it can be without some sweeping changes to the core combat system (which I'm all for). The result that I am afraid of would be an even more binary healing and tanking paradigm that would likely drive me to switch roles or quit.

I think what's being lost here is that the idea behind this post was to get 4mans to start pushing towards savage mechanics. Within the game system, you can introduce difficulty within doing savage stuff. Quite easily in fact. I'm saying this from a non raider perspective too. Again, within the game engine, the devs can easily make an entire dungeon nerf healing and tanking through persistent debuffs, just lower the damage that mobs do overall.

I would love to see a gimmick dungeon that is like ff9s Ipsen's Castle, in that lower ilvl makes it easier to actually get through the dungeon

Your idea to this in perpetuity, is to have persistent debuffs throughout an entire content form (so multiple dungeons, or whatever else 'savage' 4 man content ends up being by nerfing output and modifying incoming mob damage? That would probably feel more unintuitive and jarring than being synced down to Sastasha, not to mention is a pretty hamfisted implementation.

While I love FF9 and Ipsens castle, that type of gameplay would NOT translate well to an MMO at all.

Do you have some examples of what 4 man savage content could look like? Specific mechanics, etc.