Increasing difficulty in casual content ≠ Savage

[KaivaC]

I think what's being lost here is that the idea behind this post was to get 4mans to start pushing towards savage mechanics. Within the game system, you can introduce difficulty within doing savage stuff. Quite easily in fact. I'm saying this from a non raider perspective too. Again, within the game engine, the devs can easily make an entire dungeon nerf healing and tanking through persistent debuffs, just lower the damage that mobs do overall.

I would love to see a gimmick dungeon that is like ff9s Ipsen's Castle, in that lower ilvl makes it easier to actually get through the dungeon

[Camiie]

If the general dungeon difficulty were to be raised, would those who desire such be willing to be more patient with other players and more accepting of the potential for mistakes and failure? It seems like you'd almost have to be, but then again I'm not sure it's safe to presume how others will act or react in an online game setting.

[KaivaC]

My own opinion of the playerbase aside, I would be patient. I rarely lose my composure for players in 4mans. That being said, that's why I prefer expert dungeons actually feeling like expert content. I like turning my attention towards something a bit challenging when my confidence for savage is gone.

[KaivaC]

On that note, let me counter another argument, I highly doubt that if one or two dungeons went into the optional expert roulette, that a higher difficulty in those dungeons will make players unsub. Not on the difficulty part at least.

[kikix12]

If the general dungeon difficulty were to be raised, would those who desire such be willing to be more patient with other players and more accepting of the potential for mistakes and failure? It seems like you'd almost have to be, but then again I'm not sure it's safe to presume how others will act or react in an online game setting.

If it would be one or two dungeons randomly dropped into a roulette with easier ones...no. There's no way that the average good players would have patience. If the entire game before then caters to the unskilled players, there's just no way the average Joe or Jane would learn before getting into those harder dungeons and it'd be like throwing an unskilled player into savage. Just look at Shinryu when it hit. Suddenly there was a trial where you needed to pay some attention and it was a roadblock until the better/luckier players went past and begun overgearing it.
My first attempt at it was with a party where half of the players died to literally the first Tsunami, the one that is guaranteed after about 10 seconds into the run, every single time. And they died on third and fourth approach. Player that cannot avoid a mechanic like that absolutely should not reach lvl70.

If the dungeons would either be optional and not part of any roulette that have lower-difficulty dungeons or the mandatory dungeons would be more difficult from day one (aka all the way from Sastasha and up), then yes. People would be more patient because the unskilled players would be forced to learn the earlier ones growing more skilled step by step or never reach the ones higher up. So in any run, you would have players with the capacity to learn, and that's a lot. Especially since right now it's common for people to refuse to listen to advice after a wipe...

[Remedi]

On that note, let me counter another argument, I highly doubt that if one or two dungeons went into the optional expert roulette, that a higher difficulty in those dungeons will make players unsub. Not on the difficulty part at least.

Oh you may never know, some ppl will unsub for literally everything and make sure everyone knows it /sigh

That said I think SE is more concerned about ppl dropping the hard dungeons in hope to get the faster one than eventual sub losses

[Colt47]

The indomitable problem with an aging MMORPG is the aging of it's player base. People graduate from college, find themselves at work 8 hours a day or more, drive for an hour and half a day going to and from their job or more, spend time cleaning and shopping, etc. Those old players no longer can keep up and do hard dungeon content because they're tired, their brains are melting into their skulls (at least mine feels that way when I finally get done for the day), and basically go wondering into content like Eureka falling asleep while waiting for NMs to spawn. My own glorious return to form was conquering Byakko extreme a few months back and getting my paladin weapon before entering a routine of tome farming for 360 gear. I don't even collect or bother with materia anymore because by the time I'm finished gearing up, the next patch comes around and I just have to pull everything out again.

[MoroMurasaki]

Yeah you probably suck, with that attitude. And you like to berate non raiders about being elitist.

So to be clear because I think other people play poorly you believe I play poorly, that's the gist of it? Since you're judging someone's skill level with whom you've never even played how bad must that make you?

I feel like this gets thrown at you a lot and I never see you respond to it, likely because you know you're a hypocrit, but "pot, meet kettle!"

As far as "liking to berate non raiders for being elitist"... huh? What does that even mean? I haven't even cleared o7s, I'm not some hardcore orange-or-bust bleeding edge person (because yes, despite what your treatment of them might make people believe raiders are people too) I'm pretty casual.

The fact that I can have purple and orange parses at all in anything with little to no mmo experience, poor skill at action-based video games in general and relatively little time invested here is a source of confusion for me. The only thing I have going for me is that I'm dedicated enough to not want to be a buden on any parties I join or form. When someone like me is beating a significant portion of the playerbase in any content I'm sorry but that means they're lazy (haven't put in research to understand how their class plays, aren't trying to keep their CDs and GCDs rolling constantly, etc.) or bad (know what they should be doing but can't manage to keep gcds rolling/appropriate buffs up/etc.) and saying those things might hurt some feelings but, a favorite quote of mine recently, "facts don't care about your feelings."

I commented on a post that said most people "expexted perfection" which is what I took issue with. If most people expected perfection the only people playing the game would be those orange+ players. Most people accept mediocrity without batting an eye and won't say anything to any level of play above "literally afk" outside of EX/Savage.

To tie this back around to the purpose of this thread originally - these people who are catapulting me into orange parses on a class I can name several people who outplay me on have a ton of content. All dungeons, 24 mans and raids can be completed with more than half a party of people who are playing like they've set their cat on their keyboard. Sadly this statement is hardly hyperbolic.

The only content that requires any amount of attention or care is EX/Savage and the extreme difficulty curve scares people away from it. They're used to participation trophies and you drop them in the olympics. Rapid-fire mechs that kill the party when failed instead of just hurting you, incoming damage that can actually press a healer's mp and all that on top of an enrage timer that requires at minimum pretty good play from everyone in the party.

It's no wonder people aren't participating in Savage - the game breeds a playerbase that thinks it's okay to screw up about as often as you get anything right and lets them do that... right up to the end where, yes, people start expecting something much closer to perfection if they want to clear.

So yes - I could not possibly support some difficultly in optional dungeons more. It would do nothing but good and would maybe teach people a bit more about how to play the game they've been mashing buttons in.

[Hestzhyen]

The indomitable problem with an aging MMORPG is the aging of it's player base. People graduate from college, find themselves at work 8 hours a day or more, drive for an hour and half a day going to and from their job or more, spend time cleaning and shopping, etc. Those old players no longer can keep up and do hard dungeon content because they're tired, their brains are melting into their skulls (at least mine feels that way when I finally get done for the day), and basically go wondering into content like Eureka falling asleep while waiting for NMs to spawn. My own glorious return to form was conquering Byakko extreme a few months back and getting my paladin weapon before entering a routine of tome farming for 360 gear. I don't even collect or bother with materia anymore because by the time I'm finished gearing up, the next patch comes around and I just have to pull everything out again.

I myself went from a college student to a full-time professional with a demanding job while playing XIV and I agree with your statement in many ways. I simply don't have the time or willpower to beat my head against the wall for hours to learn the hardest content any more. When I get home I want to chill and do something that won't kill the whole party because I made one mistake. A few years ago I was on the bleeding edge of Coil/Savage; now I think I might get around to it eventually. I'm getting older and less responsive and can't devote as much of my energy to games as I used to.

THAT SAID, I would like to see the game challenge us a little more in DF. The mid-core content that the Alliance raids sit at are perfect for me in terms of challenge but those are also the only instances in the game that offer it. Even then, only Rabanastre, Dun Scaith, sometimes Mhach and occasionally WoD offer what I seek. I love Hashbrowns and Ozma in particular and hope to see more fights like that. Dungeons don't have to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator, but since have more of them than any other type of content in the game, I hope SE can make some mid-core dungeons that require thought instead of being pretty corridors full of trash to AoE punctuated by bosses that go out of their way not to wipe you.

When I go into Mentor Roulette, I will sit through even the worst and totally hopeless EX runs to help if the group is willing to try. I will not ask for challenges that I am not willing to help other players though. And honestly, I think SE sells the player base short by having so much faceroll content. The average Joe will learn what to do within a few failed attempts, and the XIV player base is one of the friendliest I've seen. Despite the bad apples and petulant players who will refuse to improve or teach others, I think we'd see a net benefit from SE holding our collective skills in higher esteem.

[KaivaC]

To back up Moro's statement, I wholeheartedly support more difficult dungeons because I feel that it would do some good. I'm sure you've seen my fflogs. A lot of folks on the forums have seen them. I'm one of the worst players on the game. Doesn't mean I don't support more difficult dungeons. In fact, I would love to have more of them so that I can get better and play on a higher level than where I'm sitting at right now.

I dunno why it's been such a bad thing to suggest tuning up the difficulty. There are more benefits than there are negatives to it.