Increasing difficulty in casual content ≠ Savage

[KaivaC]

Alright…let’s talk about it. Been wanting to discuss this for some time, but of course, I had to go Kanye and run on tangents about other things – but here I am now. As the title suggests, I don’t feel that increasing difficulty in casual content equates to having Savage-level difficulty. I’ve made this point before, I’ll make it again – you can increase difficulty without touching Savage levels. But, naturally, some may disagree, so I wanted to start a discussion for the sole question of: why?

[dejiko_san]

Alright…let’s talk about it. Been wanting to discuss this for some time, but of course, I had to go Kanye and run on tangents about other things – but here I am now. As the title suggests, I don’t feel that increasing difficulty in casual content equates to having Savage-level difficulty. I’ve made this point before, I’ll make it again – you can increase difficulty without touching Savage levels. But, naturally, some may disagree, so I wanted to start a discussion for the sole question of: why?

People don't want hard dungeons. Look what happened with Pharos Sirius or the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep. It started as tough, lots of people complained, it got simpler.

I won't even get into people quitting as soon as Steps of Faith loaded up..

[jameseoakes]

People don't want hard dungeons. Look what happened with Pharos Sirius or the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep. It started as tough, lots of people complained, it got simpler.

I won't even get into people quitting as soon as Steps of Faith loaded up..

The main issue with Pharos was that it was a lot harder than the other two dungeons that came out with it. Amdapor keep nerf are a bit special as they rescaled it to be inline with Wanderers place and dropped the ilevel of the drops

[BillyKaplan]

I think the problem here is that this is treated as a dichotomy. You're either Savage content or you're casual content, but it's like. Why call things "Hard mode" if it's going to be just another variation of the dungeon that isn't actually more difficult? And if Hard Mode is too difficult for you, then it's because it should be midcore difficulty, not proper casual.
To be clearer, I agree there's room for more difficulty in the game, but not necessarily harder casual content. We need more difficulty tiers in between.

[KaivaC]

People don't want hard dungeons. Look what happened with Pharos Sirius or the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep. It started as tough, lots of people complained, it got simpler.

I won't even get into people quitting as soon as Steps of Faith loaded up..

Steps of Faith was just bad design in my opinion. Even with a nerf, when you have to wait until the dragon reaches the end to reset the fight (which can be minutes at that), it's bad.

Pharos Sirius had the misfortune of being synced down to lvl 49. It also did not have a min ilvl. Both of those things probably could've helped. Aurum is not that tough, provided you are wearing at least lvl 47 gear and have players who have a basic idea of what their doing, and a tank who can control their pulls. I've never fought the original Demon Wall in the instance, so I'll have to concede that point to you.

I think the problem here is that this is treated as a dichotomy. You're either Savage content or you're casual content, but it's like. Why call things "Hard mode" if it's going to be just another variation of the dungeon that isn't actually more difficult? And if Hard Mode is too difficult for you, then it's because it should be midcore difficulty, not proper casual.
To be clearer, I agree there's room for more difficulty in the game, but not necessarily harder casual content. We need more difficulty tiers in between.

Good point. Maybe less focus on difficulty like harder hits, and more focus on stuff like smarter enemies and mechanics, perhaps? Imagine having the healer silenced from an enemy whose hate cannot be taken by the tank.

[AppleJinx]

Then 24 man raids are what you want

[Sinh119]

This is a difficult discussion to have without being a bit more specific. In your opinion, what exactly does the term "casual" mean?

[BillyKaplan]

Then 24 man raids are what you want

In 24 player raids I'm not fighting the raid so much as I'm fighting the other 23 players in the instance, though.

[KaldeaSahaline]

This is a difficult discussion to have without being a bit more specific. In your opinion, what exactly does the term "casual" mean?

Speaking strictly personally - casual to me is not a measure of skill. It is a measure of time.

I.e. a casual player may only play a few hours a week. Whether that's savage, ultimate, dungeons, or Eureka it matters not. A casual player can be incredibly skilled, or dead weight.

A hardcore player plays numerous hours a week. They may spend it AFK at their mansion, or sitting in Eureka, leveling jobs, or raiding. A hardcore player can be incredibly skilled, or dead weight.

Most people who call me a "hardcore elitist" I'd bet on average play more than 10x more a week than I do.

[KaivaC]

Then 24 man raids are what you want

Hm? How so?

This is a difficult discussion to have without being a bit more specific. In your opinion, what exactly does the term "casual" mean?

Defining that...well, it could have a lot of meanings, I suppose. When I posed this question, I was pretty much referring to all dungeons that are currently in the leveling/expert roulettes. Not necessarily referring to players in these instances, just the dungeons themselves.