The premium app is what finally made me unsub.

[Ruf]

A quick consideration I had is that while some are harping on it making some users p2w by better managing the market board, there is something of note that isnt addressed. P2W models are almost always self serving. That is to say if I buy a powerup that gives me better stats than a free user, that power up is going to snowball ME to be even stronger longterm. If people have teh ability to manage their retainer inventories and put stuff up on teh MB and then price modify at will (should they pay), the likely hood is that people will UNDERCUT other people. This means, broadly, that overtime, MB prices should drop a bit as people attempt to UC each other. Thats beneficial to the average MB buyer..

Not really beneficial for the average mb user as actually the players that do a capital on hoarding WILL buy all the undercutted stocks until it run out & then flip it back to x3 the initial sale if not x5 just like irl wheres its becoming ridiculous nowadays.Many players do OR / do not know what an item is worth so that is right there what balance things out & so in the end poor ppl get more poor & rich ppl get richer, let me give you that example, say an item is used in a low level synth, its not worth much for a low lvl crafter, therefore they will sell it cheap because they dont care, they only gathered it for gathering xp or (first time discovery)... but on the other hand the high lvl crafter can use that for a higher lvl synth which on the final form = a lot of gils, so instead of going out there, waiting on a time node, he will just buy the cheap undercutted items, then synth the items he wants to without even gathering & then make a lot on your "average mb user".Point is, this brings it back at timing & the # of items you can hold in your possession, an item might not be worth anything atm, in 3months it might skyrocket.DM is completely deflecting the highlight of what I'm saying about his post even if he say I'm cherry picking, divinemight is not cherrypicking enough IMO because as I said, if you empty all retainers then possibiltys arnt the same,None can judge about glam items & sellable/unsellable #'s as its different for everyone, but just like that, I could go naked & have all my drawers empty to stock pile gold.

[Vstarstruck]

You don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too?
Keep making hyperbole claim and you don't even take into account the sell rate of items on market board is low.
At the best, 1/3 of items you list will be sold, 1/2 if you are lucky.
The chance and need to use kuponut for transaction is low to begin with.
This service is clearly design for people who often will not be access to the game for a period of time (out of town for work), in which it is quite often occurrence for Japanese (and Asian).
Over exaggerating is over exaggerating.

ps. Aisan banks paying their client interest so they deposit money to their bank (there is no such thing as service charge or monthly fee), but North American bank nick and dime their client on everything, do you want to pitchfork that?

There is no exaggerating, this is completely of topic, this is a pure white knight post. What was your point even? What does it mean "you don't bank for free in North America either, do you pitchfork your bank too" what does that have to do with anything? It is not relatable at all. We pay for this game, hello? the game it self, about 40 EUR or so, then sub, we should not be having to pay another sub because they left the game broken, unfinished and rushed just so they can charge us more later. No one is asking for the game to be literally free omfg.

Here is my post:

Do you like, not understand what P2W means? P2W means buying an advantage with RL money, retainers are PtW, the app makes them more so when you are paying even more money each time you want to undercut someone. Just because it only relates to the market boards for direct advantage ( and by extent free mats with ventures) does not change the fact it is PTW, you only think it is not because all you care about is battle content. Do you know how the MB works? Most sales that pass it come from the first being listed, even if it means costing more then then ext one due to tax, people do not pay attention.

You can't just sit here and go "its not P2W" without stating a reason, when it factually is. You just do not want to view SE giving P2W elements in their game.



YO CANT sell items for free! it is a microtransaction!!!

BUYING is free, once per day only
If they change this one of 2 things can thank, these threads and posts and or SE's translation team being poor.

now can we talk without red harrings?

[Wanzer]

From the Digest:

"The premium plan is based on a monthly subscription. While it’s not finalized yet, we are currently assuming around 500 yen for the monthly fee. We would like you to first try it out free, then consider subscribing. The premium plan adds various additional features such as inventory management between retainers, the ability to purchase an additional retainer on the Mog Station, and also doubles the capacity of the saddlebag."

Unless that, too, is an error, it seems you will have to actually purchase the retainer. The reddit translator also mentioned Yoshi-P outright saying it wouldn't be free.

^This.
Paying a subscription for being able to pay another subscription should take more of our attention than trying to argue whether or not it is P2W. ( '-')

It's also important to speak about it before its release, we don't need to have the app between our hands to know what's going on. Especially with the informations that Square Enix has already shared. As Bourne said ealier, it's how we had dodged the Augment your pre-order campaign. Waiting isn't helping, nor just leaving in silence (as there is no feedback attached to it). Other communities did it before us ; I'm thinking of the For Honor's one with the blackout event (because of the lack of communication from Ubi etc). Even the Destiny 2's one with the constant stream of threads helped. It can be annoying at a time to see every hour or day the same exact topic coming back, but it's our only way to voice our concerns.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Yes it has, it has also occurred to me that based on prior experiences people don't get simple things.

What is there to "get," exactly? They already revealed what features this premium service will provide, then promptly asked for our feedback. Welcome to said feedback. We aren't throwing knives blind, we're criticising what they revealed to us. People dislike essentially being deceived when we're told countless times about server limitations preventing larger inventory expansion only for an app to abruptly offer 70 slots... if we pay an additional fee. Likewise, being able to organize multiple retainers all at once has been a requested feature since 2.x. Now it's locked behind a paywall. So, pray tell, what are we "judging ahead of time"?

These choices have one thing in common in this industry that you see as micro transactions. It's a choice, the reality is that most of the percentage of accounts are for it. The only way this can change is if everyone one completely decides to boycott the application. Will it happen? No.

This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

Claiming the majority of accounts are for micro-transactions isn't just grossly disingenuous. It's flat out wrong.

[Melichoir]

Snip.

If I was correct in my understanding, you cant make MB purchases from the App. Those who will do mass purchasing will already be logged into the game and monitoring the MB. The app in that case is not beneficial. It has no net effect (other than retainer space)

Also, I dont see this happening as it were. Mabye your server? Not so much on mine. I see people flip if theres a huge undercut, but to flip means youre going to buy out someone elses stock and tehn take the risk to turn over the item. If you buy out someones stock at 1000g a pop, and then repost for 10000 gil as the only person on the MB, you run the risk of some rando coming in and flooding the MB under you for 9000 or 8000. You can try buying them out to keep demand high, but thats an uphill battle youre likely to lose long term. Any changes in drop rates or the necessity of an item may cause pricing to tank. People who game the market board arent going to ultra overcharge when they ahve a capital on the item simply because it exposes a lot of them to risk.

Also, I fail to see how the app applies to something thats youre giving an example in the game.

Low lvl player sells a low lvl item. High lvl player purchases it to create an item to make more profit on from average market board users (whom, btw, are lazy generally, and Ill get to that.) This is somehow a bad thing cause the high lvl player has spent time and effort to get there, get savvy with the market and then use his earned money and resources to make more. Mind you the low lvl player benefitted from thsi transaction as it were too.They made money on an item they perceived as garbage. And the middle man? The average MB user? theyre paying for a service or item that theyre to lazy to get themselves.

The rule of thumb in this game is pretty straightforward: Either buy it and pay out the nose, or do it yourself and save (if not generate) money.

Remember me telling you that MB users are lazy? They are. How many MB users purchase glamour prisms for 2-4k a pop, not realizing 1 lvl 70 turn in to your GC can get you 5 or 6? How many buy lvl 20 gear off the MB for 10k that can be purchased for 1 or 2k from a vendor 20 feet away. How about overpriced dyes? Materials that can be purchased from NPCs. Mats that can be farmed by yourself or by retainers fairly easily? A lot of stuff on the MB is overpriced because people are LAZY. Thats not the fault of people savvy enough to realize that. If youre not going to spend time doing it yourself, youre going to pay others for it. Thats the way it works. And those lowly users? They could use to brush up to and charge more for the items if they wanted. But they choose not to. These are not the fault of the "rich" getting richer. And all this, btw, hsa nothing to do with the APP other than price changing.

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items cna skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

[Remedi]

To be fair hate for EA is not only born out of MTs and lootboxes (cept for late bloomers that just joined the bandvagon) it also stem from their want of essentially killing the competition, by buying other companies, stripping them to the bones and then closing them.
According to the bets Bioware are next in line

[Ruf]

What is there to "get," exactly? They already revealed what features this premium service will provide, then promptly asked for our feedback. Welcome to said feedback. We aren't throwing knives blind, we're criticising what they revealed to us. People dislike essentially being deceived when we're told countless times about server limitations preventing larger inventory expansion only for an app to abruptly offer 70 slots... if we pay an additional fee. Likewise, being able to organize multiple retainers all at once has been a requested feature since 2.x. Now it's locked behind a paywall. So, pray tell, what are we "judging ahead of time"?



This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

Claiming the majority of accounts are for micro-transactions isn't just grossly disingenuous. It's flat out wrong.

that,,,,,altought more players than someone could think do contribute to the cash shop & that because of that I can not claim that a % is a minority & another % is a majority, what Bourne_Endeavor said:

Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins.

that's killing final fantasy essence imo & on that ill even point out something else like

Well im not going to comment on the translation part of this but in general the use of forums in general and not just for this game has been dying for a long time.
Most people dont look at forums.They check for info on facebook,Twitter and Reddit.
Infact Reddit has carried more weight in terms of voiced opinions on this game since it was released.
I know forum users dont want to accept they are the minority but the truth is you are.
Consider yourselves lucky that SE even accept questions still off the forums for live letter.

You are correct on the point that I do not want to accept it & so I dont accept it.

[Ruf]

If I was correct in my understanding, you cant make MB purchases from the App. Those who will do mass purchasing will already be logged into the game and monitoring the MB. The app in that case is not beneficial. It has no net effect (other than retainer space)

Also, I dont see this happening as it were. Mabye your server? Not so much on mine. I see people flip if theres a huge undercut, but to flip means youre going to buy out someone elses stock and tehn take the risk to turn over the item. If you buy out someones stock at 1000g a pop, and then repost for 10000 gil as the only person on the MB, you run the risk of some rando coming in and flooding the MB under you for 9000 or 8000. You can try buying them out to keep demand high, but thats an uphill battle youre likely to lose long term. Any changes in drop rates or the necessity of an item may cause pricing to tank. People who game the market board arent going to ultra overcharge when they ahve a capital on the item simply because it exposes a lot of them to risk.

Also, I fail to see how the app applies to something thats youre giving an example in the game.

Low lvl player sells a low lvl item. High lvl player purchases it to create an item to make more profit on from average market board users (whom, btw, are lazy generally, and Ill get to that.) This is somehow a bad thing cause the high lvl player has spent time and effort to get there, get savvy with the market and then use his earned money and resources to make more. Mind you the low lvl player benefitted from thsi transaction as it were too.They made money on an item they perceived as garbage. And the middle man? The average MB user? theyre paying for a service or item that theyre to lazy to get themselves.

The rule of thumb in this game is pretty straightforward: Either buy it and pay out the nose, or do it yourself and save (if not generate) money.

Remember me telling you that MB users are lazy? They are. How many MB users purchase glamour prisms for 2-4k a pop, not realizing 1 lvl 70 turn in to your GC can get you 5 or 6? How many buy lvl 20 gear off the MB for 10k that can be purchased for 1 or 2k from a vendor 20 feet away. How about overpriced dyes? Materials that can be purchased from NPCs. Mats that can be farmed by yourself or by retainers fairly easily? A lot of stuff on the MB is overpriced because people are LAZY. Thats not the fault of people savvy enough to realize that. If youre not going to spend time doing it yourself, youre going to pay others for it. Thats the way it works. And those lowly users? They could use to brush up to and charge more for the items if they wanted. But they choose not to. These are not the fault of the "rich" getting richer. And all this, btw, hsa nothing to do with the APP other than price changing.

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items cna skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

the person screwing over the other in that situation is the person that have the biggest stock, so in other words: the person that will undercut market to death as they have nearly unlimited ressources, minus counter argumenting one thing or two I said, & agree to disagree with me on low price items being good for average user generally speaking, you pretty much confirmed my point, I am not going to give detailed proofs of what we typed but yes its been experienced before, & therefore while you claim that you do not see that on your server, meanwhile it happens elsewhere. Junk items got me 50M in a week before,& just as a fyi,I'm not too rich atm either & yes I worked for it but still,

As for inventory space, yeah I suppose items can skyrocket in price, but item trends tend to go the opposite of that. Items typically FALL in price over time as more and more people gain access to those items ambiently. If you want to horde everything and flood the market when somethign sky rockets, yeah you could make a killing. And someone can come along and screw you by out pricing you.

ty

[Melichoir]

This is decidedly untrue lest EA would not have been tarred and feathered over lootboxes. Aggressive micro-transactions have grown in popularity due to requiring a mere fragment of your playerbase to turn a profit hence the term "whales." Say Moogle Coins are set to $1, and someone purchases a thousand of them. That is more revenue from a single person than nearly five year log subscriptions at $15 per month. To put this into perspective. A person who has maintained a subscription since the relaunch of FFXIV will have contributed less to SE's bottom line than a single person purchasing a thousand moogle coins. That's why SE is attempting this.

EA was tarred and feathered over loot boxes because it was p2w, as MOST gamers understand it. This concept of having access to an extra retainer or two, and changed the MB, is a p2w scheme is horse raddish.

Pay 2 Win model most people understand: BUYING UPGRADES/ITEMS/GEAR/ACCESS that gives you a flat out power advantage over all other players. This would be gear with better stats you can get instantly, items that make boss fights easier, front of the line access or access to special content with better items/gear that only you have access too. Etc. Items that make you OP compared to the free player.

EA got hosed cause they did that, making some of the best guns RNG in lootbox based and making it extremely difficult to get those lootboxes UNLESS you purchased them. They had defacto locked power in the game behind a paywall, where if you had deep pockets, you could statistically get stronger than everyone else. They tried to write it off as not P2W because "Everyone can get lootboxes and therye RNG!", trying to make the argument that unlike most P2W, you arent guarenteed to get those god tier items, and you could 'technically' get them yourself. People were smart enough to realize that was BS.



Now, heres the problem with the 'whale' argument. Games, like MMOs, require large player bases to function. If you create a system 1 player spends 1k on and gets a direct power advantage, but 10 players quit in retaliation to those business models, the companies ultimately lose profit. Furthermore, whales are an extreme fraction of the player base. Theyre more likely to make MORE money from the average user spending an additional 5-10$ a month + sub over time than teh 1 time whaler.

Lets say there are 100 players. Of those 100, only 1 is a whale. The other 99 spend 15/month + 5 additional for shop stuff.

in a year, the profit breakdown is this:
Whale = $1180
Avg Users = $23760

Aggressive micro transactions are generally justified by not having a subscription most times, so if they were to wipe out Subs to go after the whale, the new break down is:

Whale = $1000
Avg Users = $495

The business would suffer a net loss of $22000+. If the player base reacts negatively towards the Micro transactions and stop subbing or buying, theyll take a hit as well. It only takes around a 5% hit to the player base for a policy of favoring those whales and their 1k for it to cut even, if not a loss.

The reason SE is going in on this is because theyre figuring that its not p2w, and that it will not alienate the player base

[Melichoir]

snip

Sigh. Ok.

I have unlimited resources, I can keep undercutting my competition. As I UNDER CUT other players, people buy my stock. Who is benefitting? The avg mb user, me. I can keep undercutting, which drives prices down. Then what? My competition does the same, driving all prices down. Whos benefitting? The avg MB user. If prices get to low, Im losing value on teh stock I have in attempts to undercut, so is my competition. Lets say they jump the gun and really UC. I buy out there stock, then repost at higher prices. I now have command of the MB on that item and can charge whatever I would like.

Another competitor comes along and UCs me. We start the battle all over again. I have to drop my prices to theirs to make sales. I can buy out there stock and just horde infinitely, I guess. But Im the only one losing money on that.Cause there will always be other people who will cumulatively have more resources than me to keep posting to the MB. Having a horde of items does not mean Im 'rich'. And the longer I have those items, the more volitile they become statistically. Meaning, longer I horde those items, more likely the price will keep driving lower and lower.

Also, who cares if Junk items get you to 50 Mil. Youre an anecdote, and not necessarily the trend (if you were, then getting rich would be something everyone would do). I dont confirm your point, btw, by stating that you can gamble on hoarding items to make huge profits. I said that to illustrate there are isntances where that may occur, but that broadly speaking, its a bad business practice. Any inventory youre not moving is a loss on your ' business'. Hoarding is a bad strat overall, especially as item accessibility tends to increase over time.

This all again, btw, has nothing to do wtih the app, as all that can do is change prices. You cant purchase from the MB, so you dont have the ability to buyout your competitors; only drive down prices.