What's your first impression of Eureka?

[Tridus]

How about this?
Make this new super NM do not behaves in a fix patter and there is no red zones.
All of the NM actions are regular by an internal gauge, and this gauge accumulates on how often and how much damage players inflicted

So we get to dodge something we can't see from a mob that may or may not be visible because of server issues, that might not register what we're doing in time because of lag, and we get XP loss if we die?

I guess if you want to kill the game, sure. Fundamentally, you can't tune content to be a true challenge when you have an unknown number of people and unknown power levels, especially with an infrastructure that can't handle large scale battles. That's why instanced battles got popular in the first place.

[BillyKaplan]

This is also one of possibility that why community manager do not respond

What are they supposed to say? The last announcement boils down to this: "we heard you, and these are the immediate countermeasures to your concerns." They didn't start responding to anyone in particular, and still managed to address things that a lot of people were displeased with. Not everything, nor should they have because a lot of the complaints are about things in design that couldn't be fixed in a hot-fix patch. But apparently they do get what we're saying, even if it's "a lot of people are displeased with that content"

[Divinemights]

That was the fun part of HNM hunting, no add on, and monster is not predictable. You need to use cds accordingly

[Fyce]

Then what's even the point?

People have argued that "two dungeons are different from each other", but that "two NMs are not" (I'm not specifically talking about Vidu here). My point is that yes, they are different. Or that if you don't consider them different, at least drop that double standard.
Vidu explained to me the reason why s/he drew the line between these contents, which is something I don't agree on. That's it.

This point is one single example which comes from a previous argument saying that "Eureka is the same thing at Lv.1 and Lv.20", which is also something I don't agree with simply because the way you experience the content is different due to the freedom and effectiveness levels give you.

It is nitpicking? In the eyes of some people, it sure is. But not in my opinion. Since the argument of "everything is the same" can be streched to ludicrous lenghts so far as saying "well, killing monsters and getting loot was something I did when I played Dungeons&Dragons, so in the end, it's the same!", I prefer going the other way and look at details which differentiate things.
In short, if people want to use the "everything is the same" argument, then they have to accept that this very argument can be used against them too. Which is why I try to show how irrelevant it can be.

Edit: There is a section early in the recent Drak's video about Eureka on the matter which raises points I very much agree on. Worth a look.
I'll quote him: "the point is, things can be similar, but it doesn't mean they are the same. Even if they are the same, rehash can be done better or worse in a new context and have to be looked at critically in that context." - Source

[Vidu]

People have argued that "two dungeons are different from each other", but that "two NMs are not" (I'm not specifically talking about Vidu here). My point is that yes, they are different. Or that if you don't consider them different, at least drop that double standard.
Vidu explained to me the reason why s/he drew the line between these contents, which is something I don't agree on. That's it.
This point is one single example which comes from a previous argument saying that "Eureka is the same thing at Lv.1 and Lv.20", which is also something I don't agree with simply because the way you experience the content is different due to the freedom and effectiveness levels give you.

It is nitpicking? In the eyes of some people, it sure is. But not in my opinion. Since the argument of "everything is the same" can be streched to ludicrous lenghts so far as saying "well, killing monsters and getting loot was something I did when I played Dungeons&Dragons, so in the end, it's the same!", I prefer going the other way and look at details which differentiate things.
In short, if people want to use the "everything is the same" argument, then they have to accept that this very argument can be used against them too. Which is why I try to show how irrelevant it can be.

...except you keep ignoring that my "everything is the same"-argument wasnt limited to NM/bosses but included the core-mechanic of Eureka, which is to spawn those bosses in the first place.
Not only are those FATE-bosses not very complexe, due to the nature of the content, but the simple core-element doesnt differ from level 1 to level 20: Fighting not very intresting, because mechanicless mobs.

Why do you believe did they remove the trash fights in raids? Because they werent intresting!
Why do you believe did people "skipped" them already even in T1? (Skip=8 people from 8 different statics went in and up to the boss, so 8 statics could teleport to the boss straight away instead of having to do the trash pulls)

I suppose you want to be "fair" to the game-devs by pointing out that there are (slight) differences between the NMs, maybe even between the normal mobs. I can understand and appreciate that.
Maybe the problem is that I'm one step ahead of you, in a sense. Because I'm not asking "Okay, how different are those two fights really?" but rather "Is it fun to play those two fights?"
On paper two NMs might be very different - but when it comes to playing and its only zerging down another boss, thats not really something I can take into consideration... its a bit "Maybe there are good ideas in those fights, but they dont work with this scale of people - sadly, this missed the mark".
And again, something I cant stress enough: In order to even fight those NMs, you need to chain-kill those mobs. That is the extremly boring part I'm having such issues with.

I feel our communication also had the problem that all you wanted to show is that there is a difference between content within Eureka - wether thats being level 1 vs. level 20 or Pazuzu vs Sabotender. You admit yourself that you're not taking into consideration wether or not the content is fun or boring.
But thats the very thing that is important here! Wether the content is "fun" - not how big the difference between a level 1 and a level 20 experience is. Or between Pazuzu and Sabotender. And what I've been trying to tell you is: Even if there might be a slight difference between those experiences, at the very bottom of things the content stays the same. You're still chain-pulling mobs to spawn a FATE that has no chance to shine with mechanics, because it dies so quickly. Doesnt matter if you had to walk there, could use an aerythe or were able to call your new dino-mount. Its still: chain-pulling mobs, killing NM. Chain pulling. NM.

And well, a dungeon I get to enjoy and appriciate (if I want to) for 20 minutes - I get to see the mechanics. I have to deal with them.
Honestly, if we're talking unsyched content, I'll drop the argument that EX-primals are so different from each other, because we're just burning them down in no-time. That is whats happening to those FATEs, because its whats happening always to hunts and FATEs.
And its something they should have known would happen.

But maybe this really boils down to taste - for you, the detail wether a mob has a line or a cone AoE makes an actual difference. To me, thats not enough - I'll still dodge the AoE by taking a step forward through the mob and a step backward to get into position again. The shape of the AoE is simply not enough for me have a "new experience" (that term sounds bigger than its supposed to be).

[Fyce]

I'll only say one thing, as I answered to most of these points already.

You admit yourself that you're not taking into consideration wether or not the content is fun or boring.
But thats the very thing that is important here!

I didn't adress that side of the discussion because that's another debate entirely, one which is 100% subjective. I cannot use the same arguments in the two debates for that very reason. What I talked about was made with objective statements. They are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to talking about what the content makes you feel.

It seems that we indeed weren't on the same page from the beginning. I simply wanted to use some easily understandable and logical arguments to prove that the "everything is the same" statement was objectively wrong. Without any other consideration.

If you want to argue about how the content feels boring because it's too similar to something else or has little variety, then I'm not the good person to talk with. Simply because there's nothing to talk about. We don't have to prove each other right or wrong by trying to use our opinions as facts. Your personal tastes and mine might be different, but that doesn't mean we should confront them. Unless it's done in a civil manner, but that's something quite rare to find on these forums lately.

So yeah, I'm not much about subjective debates now (even if I jumped into one a hundred pages ago, and got insulted and disrespected for doing so. Hello Vstarstruck! I don't know if you can read me, but what is sure is that you are still in my blacklist. xoxo). Right now, I simply respect other people's opinions and agree to disagree. That's what I find to be the best course of actions to take regarding subjective opinions. At least on these forums.

[Fynlar]

I don't know if it's been said buuuut....this IS the way we are getting our relics and quite honestly, it's waaaaaay better than the old way. Would you rather have to Que up for dungeons and raids to grind or go out and do Fates for RNG drops?

YES, I would have. Would have been a lot more engaging than this.

The only part about old relics I didn't like was needing specific FATEs in the animus books, which involved a lot of waiting around for a particular FATE to spawn. Guess what Eureka essentially is?

[Vstarstruck]

...except you keep ignoring that my "everything is the same"-argument wasnt limited to NM/bosses but included the core-mechanic of Eureka, which is to spawn those bosses in the first place.

"People won't do bad content no matter the reward!"
"People do bad content just for the reward!"

What I find interesting in our argument, is that I don't even have to take part in it.

Well on this I can actually agree with you. Because it's impossible to have an argument when one side can't muster a real argument but rather resorts to dishonesty. You've been quote mining, cherry picking, straw manning, and broadly generalizing others arguments all throughout this thread. If you won't be honest then I'm done trying to respond to you.

I doono, I find it odd how people that like it are trying soo hard to make it sound like there is more there then there really is.
The NMs are brainless zerg rushes, it has no special mechanics.

In the end I need to ask what was the Dev team thinking? putting 144 people in a zone where all rush a NM with too little hp, or having too much hp for 8 people?

YES, I would have. Would have been a lot more engaging than this.

The only part about old relics I didn't like was needing specific FATEs in the animus books, which involved a lot of waiting around for a particular FATE to spawn. Guess what Eureka essentially is?

Just SOME of the fates where an issue, not all. Like the one that dies in 5 seconds in upper la noscea.

But yes a lot of people said here they would take the old relics over this, including myself having 9 HW, 2 AAR, 1 ffxi relic, 1 ffxi emp, each of those are far more interesting with less time sink in ONE SITTING. (Also you are not punished for going afk to the bathroom for any of those)

[HolyGlassofWater]

My first impression? Everything FEELS the same

[ko_]

:c

He cares. But more importantly I think his entire point was my point from last week. That it's fair to say you're doing the same thing in dungeons/raids/etc etc as in there. Those don't REALLY bring anything new to the game. But they do, and so did Euerka. Was it good? don't know... as the percent here who hate it is still small. we don't know how hated or loved it is cause everyone in game is not on here to talk about it. So saying Euerka brought nothing new.. well dungeons raids and trials do the same thing. You do the dance, then do your rotation for the loots.

And if that's his point I get it. As you can't slam Euerka which actually DOES have 2 new features to this game and not slam everything else for being the same thing all the time. Does it need work YES! It seriously does. It needs alot actually if you want my actual opinion. But his point isn't invalid, that's kindof mean to tell him that when so far as I know he wasn't told you your point was invalid.