What's your first impression of Eureka?

[Vstarstruck]

So, you think that Serket, Bombadeel and Pazuzu are basically the same thing because... you can't see them.
These monsters have different attack patterns and mechanics do deal with. Serket has a lot of really big AoEs, Bombadeel follows a very specific pattern that you have to know (ie:"after cleave, get away from him"), Pazuzu has 5 or 6 different attacks that you have to know, and spawns adds with different elements than him. But you consider that completly moot because of technical difficulties extremely dependent on the number of people there. And even if they recently changed the culling priorities.

As you wish, but my point still stands: that line you drew is completly subjective. I, for example, do not recognize your argument in my personal experience. I have to fight differently each NMs, regardless of culling issues. That's enough to prove my point.


Note: when I said that I knew, I actually thought that you were going to reference the difficulty of the content, and not technical issues. So I apologize, I actually had no clue and made a wrong assumption.

No one cares! you zerg rush, it is the same outcome. One person is no importance, there is no challenge in knowing or not knowing and it is hard to know because the servers lag too much. It is hard to see any kind of marker because there is too many people there. It is just hit the thing, die, hit the thing, die, hit the thing. There is no full wipe because you fail a DPS check like other content, even if other content is really low bar dps checks, people do vote abandon on them time to time.

So you really have no point, there is no "my point still stands" just weak defenses on subpar content, (if you can call such a braindead place content)

Vidu I am wondering if yo saw this?:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4631987
Maybe that is what we are missing this whole time? People like it because there is no reason to push for 100% uptime and very laxed?

[ko_]

:c

He cares. But more importantly I think his entire point was my point from last week. That it's fair to say you're doing the same thing in dungeons/raids/etc etc as in there. Those don't REALLY bring anything new to the game. But they do, and so did Euerka. Was it good? don't know... as the percent here who hate it is still small. we don't know how hated or loved it is cause everyone in game is not on here to talk about it. So saying Euerka brought nothing new.. well dungeons raids and trials do the same thing. You do the dance, then do your rotation for the loots.

And if that's his point I get it. As you can't slam Euerka which actually DOES have 2 new features to this game and not slam everything else for being the same thing all the time. Does it need work YES! It seriously does. It needs alot actually if you want my actual opinion. But his point isn't invalid, that's kindof mean to tell him that when so far as I know he wasn't told you your point was invalid.

[HolyGlassofWater]

He cares. But more importantly I think his entire point was my point from last week. That it's fair to say you're doing the same thing in dungeons/raids/etc etc as in there. Those don't REALLY bring anything new to the game. But they do, and so did Euerka. Was it good? don't know... as the percent here who hate it is still small. we don't know how hated or loved it is cause everyone in game is not on here to talk about it. So saying Euerka brought nothing new.. well dungeons raids and trials do the same thing. You do the dance, then do your rotation for the loots.

And if that's his point I get it. As you can't slam Euerka which actually DOES have 2 new features to this game and not slam everything else for being the same thing all the time. Does it need work YES! It seriously does. It needs alot actually if you want my actual opinion. But his point isn't invalid, that's kindof mean to tell him that when so far as I know he wasn't told you your point was invalid.

It doesn't take a lot to prove that something isn't exactly the same. Even if you had two NM bosses that had no mechanics but just auto attacked for the same amount of damage, you can argue they're not objectively the same because they look different. Wow, that was hard. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that everything is exactly the same literally

EDIT: Let me expand on my point, as I'm not sure how clear it is looking back. How many people do you know say "Why do they even bother with two dungeons every other patch, they're all the same anyways, we might as well just get one or none." Compared to the amount of people that say "Eureka is the same as diadem" "all NM boss fights are the same" and so on. These people aren't saying that Eureka is actually diadem, or every NM boss is indistinguishable. If you have to argue against this position, you're literally not arguing with anyone, you're just talking.

[ko_]

:O

I get what you're saying, but to answer your last question. In that way no, BUT you do see people complain all the dungeons are just a line to the finish and they get boring. I just point out that saying Euerka brings nothing is false as it did bring 2 new completely new systems to this game. I'm not saying it's perfect and it does need more work to it. but to the people who complained it brought nothing I feel that line of thought is wrong. and it'll be the same saying all dungeons are the same. But that was my only point and what I think the person I qouted earlier was saying also. thanks for the reply.

Also I found a video that better expresses my thoughts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF29EvN9yc4&feature=youtu.be

[Fyce]

It doesn't take a lot to prove that something isn't exactly the same. Even if you had two NM bosses that had no mechanics but just auto attacked for the same amount of damage, you can argue they're not objectively the same because they look different. Wow, that was hard. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that everything is exactly the same literally

EDIT: Let me expand on my point, as I'm not sure how clear it is looking back. How many people do you know say "Why do they even bother with two dungeons every other patch, they're all the same anyways, we might as well just get one or none." Compared to the amount of people that say "Eureka is the same as diadem" "all NM boss fights are the same" and so on. These people aren't saying that Eureka is actually diadem, or every NM boss is indistinguishable. If you have to argue against this position, you're literally not arguing with anyone, you're just talking.

Then why do people keep insisting on saying "it's the same as xxx, that's bad", when they simply could say "I find it to similar too xxx for my taste"?
It just sounds like they try to speak like their personal views are presented as the truth when it's simply their own personal opinion.

Thus I think it's fair to fight subjective opinions disguised as objective facts with objective arguments. Even if that's as "easy" to do as proving that 1 is not equals to 1.01.

In short, don't try to fake it and make it looks right when it's extremely easy to prove it wrong. Simply play fair and swallow the pill of "what I'm saying is just my personal opinion and is as valid as any other", and express yourself accordingly. Agree to disagree.

Also, words have meaning. Don't say something you don't mean in the hope that people will actually understand your underlying statement. That's silly. It's not hard to speak clearly and use the right words. That's all I ask.
I have no shame in playing the "well, technically..." guy if people act like that.

[HolyGlassofWater]

Then why do people keep insisting on saying "it's the same as xxx, that's bad", when they simply could say "I find it to similar too xxx for my taste"?
It just sounds like they try to speak like their personal views are presented as the truth when it's simply their own personal opinion.

Thus I think it's fair to fight subjective opinions disguised as objective facts with objective arguments. Even if that's as "easy" to do as proving that 1 is not equals to 1.01.

In short, don't try to fake it and make it looks right when it's extremely easy to prove it wrong. Simply play fair and swallow the pill of "what I'm saying is just my personal opinion and is as valid as any other", and express yourself accordingly. Agree to disagree.

Also, words have meaning. Don't say something you don't mean in the hope that people will actually understand your underlying statement. That's silly. It's not hard to speak clearly and use the right words. That's all I ask.
I have no shame in playing the "well, technically..." guy if people act like that.

Let me ask you something Fyce, do you expect people to precede literally everything they say with "Well in my opinion..." or conclude with "Well, that's just my opinion." I've given plenty of my opinions in the past while saying "It's bad" and then explaining why I think it's bad. I think it's a bit ridiculous to make sure people are being absolutely subjective. Just because I spit out my veggies and say "That's nasty." I'm not making an objective proclamation about vegetables. If you see somebody say "it's the same as xxx, that's bad" you should automatically assume that's their opinion.

Why do you assume they are trying to disguise their opinions as facts? Because they try to argue for their position? Welcome to a debate. "Television is a bad influence." Which side is going to be for this claim? Which is going to be against?

If we all just agree to disagree, there would be literally no point to making any claim whatsoever if you can't argue for or against it. We want to debate whether Eureka is good or bad, or what aspects of it are good or bad, because the future of Eureka affects all of us

[Nestama]

If we all just agree to disagree, there would be literally no point to making any claim whatsoever if you can't argue for or against it. We want to debate whether Eureka is good or bad, or what aspects of it are good or bad, because the future of Eureka affects all of us

Well rather than debate on whether Eureka is good or bad (because that will get us nowhere due to differing opinions), debate on how it could be improved (for current and future steps). Even people who like Eureka will say it could be better (well, I know I do). What I doubt will ever happen is a complete overhaul of Eureka - Anemos. I honestly can't see SE shutting Eureka - Anemos down for X amount of time and then re-release it like they did for Diadem.

Personally I was hoping there would be Key Item NM's that you force pop and only your party could fight it. I'm hoping that will be a later step (maybe in 4.3X).

Also we all know that Solo is the best soft drink. Don't kid yourselves.

[HolyGlassofWater]

Well rather than debate on whether Eureka is good or bad (because that will get us nowhere due to differing opinions), debate on how it could be improved (for current and future steps). Even people who like Eureka will say it could be better (well, I know I do). What I doubt will ever happen is a complete overhaul of Eureka - Anemos. I honestly can't see SE shutting Eureka - Anemos down for X amount of time and then re-release it like they did for Diadem.

Personally I was hoping there would be Key Item NM's that you force pop and only your party could fight it. I'm hoping that will be a later step (maybe in 4.3X).

Also we all know that Solo is the best soft drink. Don't kid yourselves.

Any type of debate will help develop further insight. Eureka good or bad, how it can be improved, it doesn't matter. I just don't want any arguments discredited because of something as silly as "Well, that's just like, your opinion man." Instead, I want something like "Actually, Eureka is not bad. Eureka is different. I think this is because it brings the community together." And then you can expect someone to counter that, and so on. The beauty of civilized debate.

[Vstarstruck]

He cares. But more importantly I think his entire point was my point from last week. That it's fair to say you're doing the same thing in dungeons/raids/etc etc as in there. Those don't REALLY bring anything new to the game. But they do, and so did Euerka. Was it good? don't know... as the percent here who hate it is still small. we don't know how hated or loved it is cause everyone in game is not on here to talk about it. So saying Euerka brought nothing new.. well dungeons raids and trials do the same thing. You do the dance, then do your rotation for the loots.

And if that's his point I get it. As you can't slam Euerka which actually DOES have 2 new features to this game and not slam everything else for being the same thing all the time. Does it need work YES! It seriously does. It needs alot actually if you want my actual opinion. But his point isn't invalid, that's kindof mean to tell him that when so far as I know he wasn't told you your point was invalid.

No the dungeons are not the same, I addressed that. You are playing differently across different jobs to keep 100% uptime, and each job needs that to performed differently, some jobs more then other like BLM, needs to know the fight better so they can cast skate to the right spots while keeping 100% uptime. This means you also really need to know the fight well to properly time triple cast and swiftcast to allow longer movements to attempt 100% uptime, then you got laylines and aetheral manipulation, For MCH that means you need to know when to hold wildfire during phase outs, same with SMN with DT managment + trying your hardest to keep aetherflow on CD, for MNK it is proper use tornado kick in prep of knowing a phase change is coming, along with perfect balance and other things to be a good mnk dps (mnk is very busy)

Every job has a different way of doing these different fights to maximize uptime, in diadem 3.0 everyone does the same thing, just mash buttons to make sure you get gold, those 2 ...2 new features..? eh? pushing the annoying elemental wheel so you always get a bonus? I can claim each trial has a new feature when it has a different duty action (and again timing this right while you are on CD may be different from job to job to keep up 100% uptime) ... im not sure what the other feature you are even talking about, PoTD had its own leveling scale and way better implemented then diadem 3.0 does, if your refering to that.

If you want to throw in the maximize uptime challenge for diadem 3.0's side, then I got a simple counter for it, you can't because you cant see what is going on due to poor server performance, so you can't even perform or get close to 100% up time like you can in duties because the servers are too poor with input delays with that many people around. I also know they have too much hp for 8 people, and too little for 100 ish people, so it is hard to argue what those mechanics are even assuming.

They technically do have mechanics, it's just now that people are level 20 (most? some?) and 3-5 magicites stacked into one slot, they're dying as fast as Hunt mobs.
NM's with the 'Thunderer' theme are comparable to the Hydra and Chimera Relic trials. The rest are comparable to dungeon bosses (low levels being mini-bosses and higher levels being final bosses)

The above addresses this as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF29...youtu.be&t=524
This really shows something here, he complains about "server lag" even on a high end computer with .. average? I guess? internet speed. Up def could be better but the end of the day SE should of tested this better and know they have server problems when you have more then 24 people in a small area by now.

So with that glaring problem, there is no way you can argue the 100% up time challenge in this diadem 3.0

The comparing it to ffxi and being "old school" is also flawed because this viewpoint is only looking at a very narrow aspect, the grind. If we look at FFXI's sense of danger, it was more prevalent there. For one, people learn where to camp and where not to camp at night, as low hp has a HUGE aggro range that this place does not replicate. second, new MMOs are that, new, this starts and finishes you with the same abilities, rotations, so on, so the idea in itself defeats itself as the notion is literally impossible. For this to remind you of ffxi, you are taking a very narrow viewpoint and not looking at what made ffxi as a hole and how you dealt with problems there. A person even touched on what these other aspects are, and I think it went largely ignored. It is a simple fact diadem 3.0 is too small of a zone to give such a feel. There is no sort of puzzle or time sink moving between major places.

This means monsters are way out of place to give this kind of feel. You did not typically run across one zone, going from monsters you can beat to stuff that can one shot you in a matter of a 30 second to 1 minute length run (yes I timed it, it is a very small zone) When things threatened your party, it did not one shot you, yeah it could kill you quickly but you could escape with good kiting skills, making the monster path longer then your direct runs. You ran the risk of home pointing if you where not careful, not because of the exp loss but more so remaking the track to you destination was the real time loss. Here it is not hard to find a raise because again, how small the zone is.

In old MMOs esp ffxi and runescape, things last, this grind you do is going to be worthless 6 months? a year at most? This diadem 3.0 failed to reflect such feel of gear lasting since. The problem putting this "nostalgia" in FFXIV has to do with the combat systems as well, what they gave is in diadem 3.0 does not really fit with ffxiv's combat system overall where it worked in ffxi (also the fact old ffxi, pre abyssea was based on the idea of killing one thing , rest about 10-15 , the break given as a thf or what have you pulled. So when people pull "reminds me of ffxi" I feel that is said from looking at things from a too narrow scope.)

Making bad content basically to make the community find a way to make it "tolerable" is not a pro for said content. You are basically admitting it is so bad, it is up to the players to make it somewhat tolerable.

I hate the lockbox system because it is too much inventory bloat, I really do not want to turn them in because I don't want to go though tons of useless items, wasting my time to discord them in mass to hope for a mount. With the amount of lockboxs they throw at you, it should just been a currency.

At the end of the day I have issues with releasing a "beta" or experiment, this late in the expansion. To me such an experiment should been released on 4.0 - 4.1, if this happened I would be a lot more forgiving. Given delay after delay however, it is expected to have something more polished. I do not see how anyone can see any positive in this kind of design other then lul to finish a relic is quicker in rl time (my counter, the start up cost in time/cost of time in one sitting, is too high, something no other grind in ffxiv had)

To put it simple, this entire Eureka conflict is like Pepsi Vs Coke
Pepsi lovers fighting Coke Lovers while general public just treat both as refreshment drinks.
They don't care.

No, because that is based on pure opinion, the other can be backed with logic.

Let me ask you something Fyce, do you expect people to precede literally everything they say with "Well in my opinion..." or conclude with "Well, that's just my opinion." I've given plenty of my opinions in the past while saying "It's bad" and then explaining why I think it's bad. I think it's a bit ridiculous to make sure people are being absolutely subjective. Just because I spit out my veggies and say "That's nasty." I'm not making an objective proclamation about vegetables. If you see somebody say "it's the same as xxx, that's bad" you should automatically assume that's their opinion.

Why do you assume they are trying to disguise their opinions as facts? Because they try to argue for their position? Welcome to a debate. "Television is a bad influence." Which side is going to be for this claim? Which is going to be against?

If we all just agree to disagree, there would be literally no point to making any claim whatsoever if you can't argue for or against it. We want to debate whether Eureka is good or bad, or what aspects of it are good or bad, because the future of Eureka affects all of us

+1

I did Amarok for the first time yesterday, and I can confirm it has combat patterns and some mechanics...basically those of Cerberus without the chains and the stomach. Problem is, people don't care...they ignore everything, die a dozens of time and just kill it by raising, hitting and dying again and again and again...

With the Xp loss, Eureka was supposed to make players play a little safer, but since being raised negates all loss, it's doesn't work. So, first, they should fix the clipping of bosses so they'll take display priority, then allow for an Xp buffer when you reach level 20...and then make death always cost Xp, just far less if you're raised.

Problem with this idea is lack of level sync, it is hard to find 7 other people within 1 level of you. Basically your suggestion is too sadistic with the current state. You are going to routinely fight stuff that will one shot you over and over again because of the lack of people at the same level range. It does not feel dangerous because the zone is too small, and because of that cram too much in small areas, that simple. I do not think SE has enough server space to make zones big enough to fit such a feel and put fitting monster levels at each spot in the zone(s)

[ko_]

D:

You're explaining details... none of which I'd say matter or fair when really you can break all of that down to - knowing your rotation to beat the boss-. Like I said at the end of the day what you say about Euerka you can say about dungeons raids and whatever. Doing your rotation to beat the boss for loot. Getting into the details doesn't change that fact. And I'm only saying THAT cause I was explaining what someone else said. Which was pretty much everything is the same.. but that's why it's bad to say that. Your other points I don't have an issue with really. It's just THAT one. As far as euerka itself? Yes it needs work, while I'm happy with how it is, it can use a better system other than the -train-. I know they buffed chains.. but noone is going to do those cause NM farming is still the best way to level.

So def a better way for lower levels to gain levels without hoping on the train, more mechs that use your element wheel and maybe more boss fights within it? That is just off the top of my head. I want it to improve also and I'm with you on that completely. But my only issue is that one point we keep fighting about.. I'm sorry.. that point I can't agree with.. cause I'm a monk. My rotation is the same in there as it is in dungeons, as it is in raids - 24 man raids-. so on that front... yes it's all the same thing to me. I'm not in there -spamming buttons as you say.- Spamming to me is hitting one skill over and over and over... which techinally you can't even do anyway... unless you wanna dragon kick the whole time.. which is dumb.