Released a broken Eureka

[Vivi_Bushido]

This content was made for level 70 only, your gear synced to i300, how are you supposed to gain exp for other classes in a system like this? Let us assume it magically lets you, you do not see the problem here? People will be 70 with having NO CLUE how to play, people usually don't use Palace of the dead past 60 and they have to actually know how to play 65 + unless the other 3 does not mind a leech. Then what difference does this make to those that got everything at 70? how does gaining exp change people's minds?

Also PoTD can punish you for being brain dead, no one wants to admit wipes was made due to over pulling + running over a mine, or people running to a silver chest and running over a mine just after? I saved runs before by not following the heard but even with that, sometimes one person can't save the run if there is too many monsters... or back in HW what about healers making sure they take cleric off? PotD had risks you had to juggle, Diadem 3.0 is more brain dead then this and you can never wipe there anyway /sh rez <pos>

Also if their goal was to try give ffxi nostalgia overload there, they picked the wrong music. Remixes or more fitting music (esp nms) would been a plus

PotD only really punishes you beyond floor 100 where all progression is lost. You wipe below floor 100 and who really cares. It takes 10mins to get back to the spot you wiped. Eureka you physically level down and it could take hours to get back to the position you once had. The risks are even greater. With the exception of dying beyond floor 101+ in which case PotD wins there.

And that's not necessarily true about someone not leveling all the way straight to 70 through PotD. Is it optimal? No, it's not. But I bet you some people have leveled their jobs all the way to 70 there trying to get gold sacks or clear floor 200, or just simply running with friends over and over. I know I have leveled jobs all the way to 70 off of PvP, and you get less exp there than you do from PotD.

As for the point about Eureka giving exp, that was a rhetorical example to suggest something that would make people appreciate the content more if it was taken into consideration prior before release.

I personally don't believe that Eureka was to appeal to FFXI nostaigia at all. I feel that "Level down" only existed as a penalty to keep players from acting like brain deads and from pulling every last thing they see without consequences for their actions. I feel it's a necessary evil to reduce potential trolling and provide a sense of danger within the content. I feel anyone that get's FFXI nostalgia off of that is simply coincidental.

[Vstarstruck]

PotD only really punishes you beyond floor 100 where all progression is lost. You wipe below floor 100 and who really cares. It takes 10mins to get back to the spot you wiped. Eureka you physically level down and it could take hours to get back to the position you once had. The risks are even greater. With the exception of dying beyond floor 101+ in which case PotD wins there.

People value their time differently then you I guess, but you are incorrect, also you must forgot what it was like when it was new with 1-50. Very frustrating having 40-50 min runs, wiping to mistakes that is made from bad decisions. Also when you wipe you where done, no redos, no /sh raise <pos> I never had to hp once in diadem 3.0, dying is meaningless. Also you had less control over damage control in PoTD. In diadem 3.0 only your self is to blame, in PoTD it cam be completely one person's fault for the wipe and out your control completely to try salvage it. No matter how you slice it, PoTD is harder and more interesting then diadem 3.0

I went back and read some more comments:

I don't agree, I dont think it lacks tools theres introductory quests and most people in the instance will be more than happy to help and I dont think it was rushed, I think they waited all this time to have it better and its better to look at it like a work in progress that is workable and when they finally have player criticism will be improved it's kinda silly to find it broken.

This diadem requires too much time in one sitting, the other relics did not have this issue. Yeah actually they did, umbrite and unidentifieds when they were new in heavensward took MUCH longer than Eureka does, people had weapons in two days for tose steps they didnt for much, much longer also the fact that you did a relic in XI is kinda irrelevant.

I also spent 2-3 hours across 5 days I think, and I still think it is the worst most boring thing 2-3 hours isnt enough time to fairly judge content as expansive as this, also I dont see why I should have to read a specific thread which is probably an echo chamber just to respond to you.

this is 4.25, being a beta has no defense here. They had no player feedback til now please say how they were supposed to make it perfect on release?

it gets annoying seeing people trying to defend it, annoying to see SE white knights insulting people for disliking it. I'm not a "white knight" whatever that is, I've acknowledged Eureka has its flaws its far from perfect but it is not broken and I believe it'll be better when they adjust future updates with feedback that they now have and im sorry just because people insult you (which ive not done) doesnt even in the slightest mean the content is broken.

In-fact 1-2 hrs should be simply easier with easier to solo and better introductions to let people warm up to it better. it's an MMO we've known the basic concept of what Eureka was for months we knew it was an open world-ish with an independant levelling systems if you've been following it at all you would know this and wouldnt be complaining and it's an MMO it's meant to be played cooperatively they're not to make purely solo play more rewarding than group play, they're incentivising people to work together hence why every quest doesnt have markers and FORCES you to ask other people.

1. No it did not, it did not require as much time IN ONE SITTING to progress on it, I was not talking about total time spent. I rather do HW/ARR relics, where I can progress a bit of a time in one sitting, and have different alt methods on progressing on them.

2. It is too enough to judge. The design is a blatant flaw if you sit here and tell me it is not enough time to judge, and it is the same thing over and over again anyway, wth really?

3. Invalid argument, plus they knew people did not like diadem, they flat out said it was not going to be diadem and it will be new and innvoative, they did not give us that. So they knew what people wanted, so indirectly, yes they did have player feedback on it.

4. ... I really can't comment on this.. it is trying to relate points unrelated.

5. They said it would be soloable, this whole statement is invalid. In the end they did not live up to "it is going to be new and innovative". For the no markers thing, it just let me confused. I thought it was bugged and I did not know what to do. I did not pick up on it till my SO was talking to someone about helping them on a quest. I basically said there is no quest, nothing in my log, no marker, wth are you talking about? after a while I just went to the supposed spot to complete this ghost quest and sure enough it was there.

[Vivi_Bushido]

When it is just fate trains with nothing else, no it does not.

You would rather have no new map at all and just grind old world FATEs again and again and again? Because that's not going to change. That's all hunts are. FATEs. That's all this game can do is FATEs. At least the new map adds verity. I am just grateful we got that at all. It's progress in a forward direction of some kind away from traditional norm.

People value their time differently then you I guess, but you are incorrect, also you must forgot what it was like when it was new with 1-50. Very frustrating having 40-50 min runs, wiping to mistakes that is made from bad decisions. Also when you wipe you where done, no redos, no /sh raise <pos> I never had to hp once in diadem 3.0, dying is meaningless. Also you had less control over damage control in PoTD. In diadem 3.0 only your self is to blame, in PoTD it cam be completely one person's fault for the wipe and out your control completely to try salvage it. No matter how you slice it, PoTD is harder and more interesting then diadem 3.0

Actually, you would be incorrect. If you wiped on floor 49, you restarted back on floor 41. It has always been that way ever since PotD existed. Secondly, PotD did offer a few methods of revival. Phoenix downs dropped from bronze chests, and the thing that revives all dead players on the map when it is activated. Eureka, you have to hope on the goodness of someone's heart that they willing go out of their way to run through monster infested territories of mobs 10 levels above their own to revive some stranger.

5. They said it would be soloable, this whole statement is invalid. In the end they did not live up to "it is going to be new and innovative".

They also said PotD would be soloable, and look how long it took someone to clear all 200 floors alone. Eureka is arguably soloable under special conditions similar to PotD. In addition, the mobs ARE soloable. You just have to approach them with the right tool kit, again, not any different from doing PotD solo. If you refer to NM then they warned everyone that you would want to take these on with other players. Secondly, the monsters do scale with the number of players within the zone, so in theory, you could solo a NM if you were say, the only person in the entire zone.

[Vstarstruck]

You would rather have no new map at all and just grind old world FATEs again and again and again? Because that's not going to change. That's all hunts are. FATEs. That's all this game can do is FATEs. At least the new map adds verity. I am just grateful we got that at all. It's progress in a forward direction of some kind away from traditional norm.

I would of them just gave us a book, do x fates, kill x things, have dailies on them like singing clusters in hw then diadem 3.0 Least in that way you are helping people clear content for the first time, bringing back life on your world, so people are not alone that just happen want to use a few fates to help level, and like the speed up. (I like yo kai doing this as well, helps other people too)

Actually, you would be incorrect. If you wiped on floor 49, you restarted back on floor 41. It has always been that way ever since PotD existed. Secondly, PotD did offer a few methods of revival. Phoenix downs dropped from bronze chests, and the thing that revives all dead players on the map when it is activated. Eureka, you have to hope on the goodness of someone's heart that they willing go out of their way to run through monster infested territories of mobs 10 levels above their own to revive some stranger.

I know how PoTD works tyvm. it is either you are to understanding me what I am talking about, or you are twisting what I say on purpose for some unknown reason. Do not tell me I am wrong on something I am right about, I know what I am talking about so I'll just hit the ball back to you and say "no you are incorrect"

look back when it was 1-50 only, it was not uncommon for 41-50 to take 30+ mins, sometimes you where pushing 10 mins or less left when you reach the final boss. There was a decent chance of wiping on one of the last floors or the boss it self. floors 1-50 where nearfed HEAVILY when 51-100 came out, both size in floors and making it easier in general (for some reason they left 11-20 alone in that regard. The range of slime blow up is huge af.) really shocked they pretty much nerfed everything (smaller floors, higher weapon/armor caps to make things more pushover, all aspects of 1-50 was nerfed except those slimes.)

For diadem 3.0 you are acting like tossing raises isn't common.. Are you on a dead data center or something?

I raise you
you raise me
We are a big raise casting family
With a swiftcast and a jumpcheer here and there
wont you join me in the raise fate train too?

They also said PotD would be soloable, and look how long it took someone to clear all 200 floors alone. Eureka is arguably soloable under special conditions similar to PotD. In addition, the mobs ARE soloable. You just have to approach them with the right tool kit, again, not any different from doing PotD solo. If you refer to NM then they warned everyone that you would want to take these on with other players. Secondly, the monsters do scale with the number of players within the zone, so in theory, you could solo a NM if you were say, the only person in the entire zone.

Invalid comparison. Item A is supposed to be accessible by everyone to give people something to do that does not like raiding. Item B was meant for pure challenge and prestige. They even said that and the reason they had a scoreboard. You could very well solo it, being the first to solo to 200 is a great feat. you are saying being in an airplane 10k meters is the same as being on the ground because you are still on earth.. .. i can't believe you pulled this.

The dev team seems to have one single vision for its content, and constantly gets surprised when players don't share that vision.

I really think it would be helpful if they had someone able see the bigger picture and the possibilities people may see things outside that one track scope.

[Vivi_Bushido]

I would of them just gave us a book, do x fates, kill x things, have dailies on them like singing clusters in hw then diadem 3.0 Least in that way you are helping people clear content for the first time, bringing back life on your world, so people are not alone that just happen want to use a few fates to help level, and like the speed up. (I like yo kai doing this as well, helps other people too)

If that's what you prefer then you are entitled to feel that way, as I am entitled to feel that Eureka is a better direction. I personally liked Diadem, but maybe I just fall into a minority that does.

I know how PoTD works tyvm. it is either you are to understanding me what I am talking about, or you are twisting what I say on purpose for some unknown reason. Do not tell me I am wrong on something I am right about, I know what I am talking about so I'll just hit the ball back to you and say "no you are incorrect"

Starting to feel like I'm playing volleyball with a "know it all" now. You started this "no you are incorrect" game with this quote here:

People value their time differently then you I guess, but you are incorrect, also you must forgot what it was like when it was new with 1-50. Very frustrating having 40-50 min runs, wiping to mistakes that is made from bad decisions. Also when you wipe you where done, no redos, no /sh raise <pos> I never had to hp once in diadem 3.0, dying is meaningless. Also you had less control over damage control in PoTD. In diadem 3.0 only your self is to blame, in PoTD it cam be completely one person's fault for the wipe and out your control completely to try salvage it. No matter how you slice it, PoTD is harder and more interesting then diadem 3.0

Not really sure how you can throw the ball back to me and not expect the ball to come back?? Seems a bit unfair.

Invalid comparison. Item A is supposed to be accessible by everyone to give people something to do that does not like raiding. Item B was meant for pure challenge and prestige. They even said that and the reason they had a scoreboard. You could very well solo it, being the first to solo to 200 is a great feat. you are saying being in an airplane 10k meters is the same as being on the ground because you are still on earth.. .. i can't believe you pulled this.

Ugh... the number of times you throw around the word invalid just because you disagree with something. What is this Item A and B stuff? I thought I was having a discussion, not on trial. Both are meant to be accessible by everyone, and everything is accessible by everyone. I fail to see where you're going with this point?

[Crescents]

1. No it did not, it did not require as much time IN ONE SITTING to progress on it, I was not talking about total time spent. I rather do HW/ARR relics, where I can progress a bit of a time in one sitting, and have different alt methods on progressing on them.

I'm sorry, but im starting to think you never did relic progression pre nerfs because it was ages before anyone was able to complete the unidentified grind whereas again Eureka multiple people had relics the second day so how is that grind worse again this is a break from the monotony this is finally something different, no its not perfect, but maybe stop condemning it after you've only spent a minimal amount of time when its a giant leap forward as far as relic grinds go.

It is too enough to judge. The design is a blatant flaw if you sit here and tell me it is not enough time to judge, and it is the same thing over and over again anyway, wth really? It's not, because the comparisons your making are kind of silly if you had enough time to experience the extent of the content and if you got near max level you wouldnt be as flippant to condemn it. The things you're saying is something I would of said the first time I went in there, and I actually progressed through the content and it changed my mind.

Invalid argument, plus they knew people did not like diadem, they flat out said it was not going to be diadem and it will be new and innvoative, they did not give us that. So they knew what people wanted, so indirectly, yes they did have player feedback on it. No, it's not I shouldnt have have to read another thread in its entirety just to deserve the right to give you my opinion.

... I really can't comment on this.. it is trying to relate points unrelated.
Girl, you sat there and accused me of being a white knight, you were upset over people insulting you, and you turned around and labelled me in a way that was clearly intended to be insulting, it's kind of hypocritical and I would like an explanation.

In the end they did not live up to "it is going to be new and innovative" They said it would be diadem with an independant levelling system like POTD which last I checked it is. it also is soloable, day 1 a few people were saying how they got more xp per kill on mobs solo which I can't confirm because I never went solo but it does sound like SE living up to expectations but people party because its more effective again, like POTD and just because you dont understand something doesnt mean it's bad.

The way you're wording things to me is becoming increasingly aggressive and I'd like to think I have been nothing but respectful and asked you questions but I can see this discussion is going nowhere I dont think there will be anything to be gained from debating further I'm going to step away but I hope SE fixes Eureka to a point where you can like it.

[Vstarstruck]

If that's what you prefer then you are entitled to feel that way, as I am entitled to feel that Eureka is a better direction. I personally liked Diadem, but maybe I just fall into a minority that does.

Right now it is a worse direction but the potential to be in the right direction is there. However it is hard to see with the unfinished state they released it in, given the delays they put on it. SE does not have a good track record so my view on a good future for this content doesn't exist at the moment.

Starting to feel like I'm playing volleyball with a "know it all" now. You started this "no you are incorrect" game with this quote here:



Not really sure how you can throw the ball back to me and not expect the ball to come back?? Seems a bit unfair.




Ugh... the number of times you throw around the word invalid just because you disagree with something. What is this Item A and B stuff? I thought I was having a discussion, not on trial. Both are meant to be accessible by everyone, and everything is accessible by everyone. I fail to see where you're going with this point?

All this last bit does not admit seeing the main point or not, and that is 1-50 is much different then now, and if one remembers how 31-50 was back when the last floor was 50. You keep telling me I am wrong when the issue is with you, either not understanding what I am talking about, or trying to skew facts to make your point look better. Call me what you want but these Ad hominems is not helping your case.

For the item a and b thing really? item A was in reference to relic concepts, what we got in HW and ARR, casual content for people to do that do not like raiding, but could get something on the level of a raid reward (not exactly the same till final months of the expansion but close enough to warrant work on, Basically they could have some step where it becomes 265 by using 3 coins from the second 24 man coming up basically 3 week gating for it, something on the lines of that but atm.. it is hard convincing some to do this content that do not like it at all, some can ofc, but there is others that will not touch it in the current state since it is viewed what you have to do, not worth the reward since casual players had access to 1- 360 weapon the same day diadem was released. I think this was a very poor planning release date/oversight on SE dev part.) while item B was referring to PoTD's concepts. It is just a different way of trying to explain you can't compare the 2 for soloing purposes as they are meant for complete different things. It is like saying in my right hand you have this, in my left hand you have something else, then explain how they are not related.

I'm sorry, but im starting to think you never did relic progression pre nerfs because it was ages before anyone was able to complete the unidentified grind whereas again Eureka multiple people had relics the second day so how is that grind worse again this is a break from the monotony this is finally something different, no its not perfect, but maybe stop condemning it after you've only spent a minimal amount of time when its a giant leap forward as far as relic grinds go.

Beast tribes, 4 a day, one of each type, a day...
I want different options, I didn't have to sit for 1-2 hours at a time to progress unlike in SB's relic. Again keep in mind I am not talking about TOTAL time it takes, but how much time you need to spend to get some progression, and that is much higher for SB's one. I rather have short sessions , longer time to achieve, then long periods of grinding, short overall time to achieve. This is the first time we did not have alternatives. I can't enter diadem 3.0 and get progress to elemental exp or relic unless I spend 30 mins +, to do a tribe while afking may of been 10 mins each. This is why I do not monster grind spam no lifing it like those that got them in 1 or 2 days. I afk there while I follow my SO though fate train and play as needed. I can't keep jamming buttons every 1-3 sec for 40 min + to get progress on something.

It is too enough to judge. The design is a blatant flaw if you sit here and tell me it is not enough time to judge, and it is the same thing over and over again anyway, wth really? It's not, because the comparisons your making are kind of silly if you had enough time to experience the extent of the content and if you got near max level you wouldnt be as flippant to condemn it. The things you're saying is something I would of said the first time I went in there, and I actually progressed through the content and it changed my mind.

That is your experience, not mine, don't force your requirements on me. I know what I like and dislike. I do not need to play it more to see if I like it or not. (tbh every day I enter I find a new annoyance on it, the last one is fates dying too quickly)
Want to know what you are truely doing to me? here you go:

The Eureka Defense: A Short Parody

Eureka Apologist: "Yo dude, have you heard about the new game that is all the rage (pun intended) on the interwebs?"

Self-respecting Individual: "No man, what is it?"

Eureka Apologist: "Punching yourself in the face!"

Self-respecting Individual: "That doesn't sound much fun to be honest, man."

Eureka Apologist: "Oh come on, at least try it before dismissing it!"

Self-respecting Individual: "Sigh, okay..." *punches himself* "Ouch dude, this is not fun in the slightest!"

Eureka Apologist: "lol man! you say that because you are doing it wrong!"

Self-respecting Individual: "Wrong how?"

Eureka Apologist: "You gotta do 3 quick jabs to your chin before you are ready for a big punch to your eye socket, you can't just zerg punch yourself without any thought to it, derp"

Self-respecting Individual: "Are you serious?"

Eureka Apologist: "Absolutely man, how can you dismiss this game without even playing it properly? Don't be a hater!"

Self-respecting Individual: "Sigh... all right, but stop bugging me after this if I don't like it" *punches himself again"

Self-respecting Individual: "Oh my god dude, now my face hurt all over. I guess the punches to my chin did help me not to feel the one to my eye that munch since my face is all numb now, but this still is the worst idea ever."

Eureka Apologist: "lol man, you barely got started, this gets a lot of fun after the first few hours! You get so numb it feels good!"

Self-respecting Individual: "Nope, not doing this for a few hours, my face already hurts enough now thank you. This sounded stupid from the beginning and I honestly regret going with it until now."

Eureka Apologist: "lololol look at you jumping on the face-punching hate bandwagon. Back in my day people worked hard to feel all numb and fuzzy, now you people only want instant gratification."

--------------

Sorry, but this is exactly how I see it in this thread lol

Invalid argument, plus they knew people did not like diadem, they flat out said it was not going to be diadem and it will be new and innvoative, they did not give us that. So they knew what people wanted, so indirectly, yes they did have player feedback on it. No, it's not I shouldnt have have to read another thread in its entirety just to deserve the right to give you my opinion.

You are giving me nothing to reply here... all I can say is you are not addressing what I said. I will word it in a different way I guess. Look, if they know enough to say "It is not going to be like diadem" They know the feedback on what Eureka(diadem 3.0) would be, and they released it ANYWAY! Has nothing to do with asking you to read other threads.

... I really can't comment on this.. it is trying to relate points unrelated.
Girl, you sat there and accused me of being a white knight, you were upset over people insulting you, and you turned around and labelled me in a way that was clearly intended to be insulting, it's kind of hypocritical and I would like an explanation.

Can't respond to this kind of red herring/Ad hominem. I looked in the past posts and see a confusion though, I will point it out here what I was talking about:
You said this:

it gets annoying seeing people trying to defend it, annoying to see SE white knights insulting people for disliking it. I'm not a "white knight" whatever that is, I've acknowledged Eureka has its flaws its far from perfect but it is not broken and I believe it'll be better when they adjust future updates with feedback that they now have and im sorry just because people insult you (which ive not done) doesnt even in the slightest mean the content is broken.

I was mainly referring to this last part " I believe it'll be better when they adjust future updates with feedback that they now have and im sorry just because people insult you (which ive not done) doesnt even in the slightest mean the content is broken." People insulting one another has nothing to do with one's view if content is broken or not. I am not sure why you said this at all. I do not think this little sub discussion should be referenced in future discussions, as it seems the risk of confusion and misunderstanding will skyrocket.

In the end they did not live up to "it is going to be new and innovative" They said it would be diadem with an independant levelling system like POTD which last I checked it is. it also is soloable, day 1 a few people were saying how they got more xp per kill on mobs solo which I can't confirm because I never went solo but it does sound like SE living up to expectations but people party because its more effective again, like POTD and just because you dont understand something doesnt mean it's bad.

The way you're wording things to me is becoming increasingly aggressive and I'd like to think I have been nothing but respectful and asked you questions but I can see this discussion is going nowhere I dont think there will be anything to be gained from debating further I'm going to step away but I hope SE fixes Eureka to a point where you can like it.

I guess trying to use logic to my best ability is aggressive to you. This last comment is anything but respectful, the bold part, stuff like that is simply best not said. Things would be better if you are able to debate only points made. (this post may have errors to the great length, I need a bit of time to refine it, hard to see if it is organized with the way you reply to things, ps I do find it not respectful when people throw fallacies at me, I wonder if that confused some people up to this point. If someone is able to respect me in full and truly take the time to read what I say, the need to pull a fallacy for anything would be nonexistent.)

Update, 2 posts, I need more time.

Ok there we go, I think I got everything. So far you been the least insulting then anyone else being "I like Eureka" I find debating with you fun.
SO said:
Someone decent in the crazy forums. Nice
I am happy. ty Vivi_Bushido

I think I learned something from this, having a proper debate one can learn more prospective and I do like understanding others thought processes more. When things are masked behind so much fallacy and insults I can't make heads or tails what is going on. I just hope you understand me better and I sorted out the confusions even if you do not reply again. Hope others can take from your example and give me fun like you have done. First time I felt like this on the OF.